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5nl FR, worth semi-bluffing?

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5nl FR, worth semi-bluffing? - Wed Apr 10, 2013, 03:39 AM
(#1)
Espada_Nu.4's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 148


villain
VPIP/PFR 32/17
AGGR 3.2

should i let it go OTF? or maybe call?
i felt like i had the best hand and when he donked on this dry board i wanted to protect my hand
 
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Wed Apr 10, 2013, 10:36 AM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hi Espada.

Quick thoughts:

I see nothing in your play that I would change.

Pre flop you COULD have flat called and set mined versus the loose/aggro villian. Doing this keeps the pot smaller, and makes your calls more palatable, and usually the BEST way to play against a very aggro villain (especially versus a loose one) is to call more and raise less.

BUT...

Since the villain is loose and aggro, you pretty much are going to see yourself facing the sort of donk leads you saw here quite frequently. Since you are going to have at least 1 over card to 88 on the flop way more often than not, you very well might benefit MORE from a raise PF that will allow you to plant the seed that you might not only be on a med pp, but also might have hit any big card flops too.

Hence I "see" reasons for your raise PF.

OTF, you gave us all the reasons you needed to in order to justify your play: "you thought you were ahead".

TT4, 2 spade flops are going to see 88 as the better hand quite often, especially versus an aggro villain playing nearly 1/3rd of his hands (albeit your PF raise likely narrowed that range). When villain donk leads 20c into 47c pot, he might have:

- Air. (of varous stripes, all less than your 88)
He cannot really call, but raising immediately and taking down the pot prevents you from seeing "tricky" cards that might make continuing tough.

- 2 Spades.
He CAN call, although it would probably be dumb to do so. You want him to call if this is his holding, but if he folds you really don't "hate" the fact he did not get the chance to spike.

- Tx.
He definately isn't mucking, but the "interest" you show with an immediate raise MIGHT lead his aggro nature to 3bet you, thinking you have enough of a hand to stack off. If he does, that saves you $.

- A vulnerable hand better than 88.
An immediate raise on these holdings MIGHT make him consider folding. 99/JJ are 2 possibles, although honestly, I doubt an aggro villain at the micro stakes would muck JJ very often here...

So...

Your raise makes a ton of sense.

When the 9s comes, what of the above can he reasonably donk bet into your raise OTF?

What can you BEAT that he can donk bet into your raise OTF?

The fact is, the largest part of what you might see donk lead the flop consists of spade draws. The 9s completed those draws, so when you see another donk lead it COULD be a bluff...but it is more likely a flush that thinks (or hopes) you have a T. If he did bluff you, so be it. The time simply was not right to sheriff his goof ball aggression if he did bluff you...

So good fold, and good hand.

-JDean

Last edited by JDean; Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 10:39 AM..
 
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Wed Apr 10, 2013, 12:14 PM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
I think I'd take a more passive line here. I'd call pre-flop in position, but I wouldn't necessarily only be set-mining. I don't really want to bloat the pot pre-flop, and I don't want to give the villain the option of 4-betting. Calling keeps villain's range wide (i.e. weak), and you can use your position to out-play him post-flop.
As played, you 3-bet and villain calls. He can do this with quite a wide range. It's actually a mistake for him to call a 3-bet oop with hands like QQ-99, ATs, KQs etc, but it's a very common leak at these stakes.

On the flop, my standard play when faced with a donkbet, when I have a made hand, is to just call. Donkbets usually represent a one pair hand, a draw, or a monster looking to induce a raise. Since villain often wants you to fold (when he has a draw or marginal pair) or raise (when he has a monster), the best play is to call. It's hard to get action from worse when you make a 3x raise on the flop, and I don't think this villain is folding, because he won't put you on a ten.
Villain calls the raise and then redonks on the turn. Since the flush got there and 99 also boated up, there's basically no hand you beat here, so folding is the right choice.

Cheers,
Arty


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 12:17 PM..
 
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Thu Apr 11, 2013, 01:16 PM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I think I'd take a more passive line here. I'd call pre-flop in position, but I wouldn't necessarily only be set-mining. I don't really want to bloat the pot pre-flop, and I don't want to give the villain the option of 4-betting. Calling keeps villain's range wide (i.e. weak), and you can use your position to out-play him post-flop.
As played, you 3-bet and villain calls. He can do this with quite a wide range. It's actually a mistake for him to call a 3-bet oop with hands like QQ-99, ATs, KQs etc, but it's a very common leak at these stakes.

On the flop, my standard play when faced with a donkbet, when I have a made hand, is to just call. Donkbets usually represent a one pair hand, a draw, or a monster looking to induce a raise. Since villain often wants you to fold (when he has a draw or marginal pair) or raise (when he has a monster), the best play is to call. It's hard to get action from worse when you make a 3x raise on the flop, and I don't think this villain is folding, because he won't put you on a ten.
Villain calls the raise and then redonks on the turn. Since the flush got there and 99 also boated up, there's basically no hand you beat here, so folding is the right choice.

Cheers,
Arty
Arty,

I do not disagree with your suggestion of playing 88 a bit slower and more carefully versus an aggro villain. As I noted in my entry, it is usually better to call more and raise less often versus a truly aggro villain, especially with middle strength hands.

BUT...

Given the depth of money in this hand, a passive call/call/call line with a middle strength hand may well not be optimal versus the LAG. What this tends to do is set you up for (perhaps) 2 calls BEFORE you "figure out" the villain might actually have lucked into a T!

So in my opinion there IS reasoning to follow either the suggested line you gave, OR the one Espada actually took.

To me, a person who tends to view things more from a live game perspective (ok, I'm an old fart! :-)), Espada's play with 88 is perfectly justified in light of the need to balance his PF raise range. 88 gives him the chance to win a much BIGGER pot if/when he does flop the set (albeit only about 1 time in 8.5), and when he doesn;t it shows the lag-tards at his table that he WILL raise/fold on some flops. That sort of image enhancer can really go a long way toward up'ing your profit margin if/when you DO have a situation where you are NOT prepared to fold to a villain's aggression.

-JDean
 

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