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5NL 6-Max flop decision on wet board + turn play

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5NL 6-Max flop decision on wet board + turn play - Thu Apr 11, 2013, 08:45 AM
(#1)
PokerIggy's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 214


SB: ( $6.50 USD ) - 45/0/0 AF: 3.7 Hands: 53
BB: ( $6.24 USD ) - 23/16/6 AF: 2.3 Hands: 1043
Villain5: no stats

Ok so the first question I have with this hand is what to do with PP when an unknown limps from EP/MP? I usually just raise smallish to let the pot grow a little more so that when I hit my set it will be easier to extract some more value, but also to not just give the SB/BB a chance to see a free flop. Is this the correct play? Do we have to make the inital raise bigger? Even when it's a UTG limp? (I really don't trust UTG limpers! )

So I hit my set on a draw heavy board. FD + SD posibilities, an A and a J so people could hold AK, AQ, AJ and hit the flop.

BB checks, Villain5 bets small so I raise the pot I think. And get reraised by the BB. So he could have AA, JJ that will beat me. However there are also enough hands that I beat that could be played like that. Made hands: AJ, AK, but also draws that could be played as semi bluff: FD, SD, KK, QQ I think?

Because of the big (protection looking over)bet and because Villain5 also called (do I have the odds agains their ranges to call?) and I'm playing IP, I decided to call to see if a club came up and to decide on the turn how to continue.

So then another A came on the turn so I had to decide what to do next. As the BB checked and Villain5 bet 1/3 pot again I thought that he was on a draw and just wanted to see a cheap river I decided to just call as I didn't know if I was beat already by the BB and wanted to keep Villain5 in the pot (don't know if that was a correct play, but that was just the reason of my call). The BB then shoved AI and Villain5 called. I just decided to try to make Villain pot committed to get him AI eventually. I managed to do this on the river. Maybe a shove on the turn would had the same result.

The BB showed AJ (ofcourse) and Villain5 showed his SD (wow).

So should I have pushed AI on the flop as there are a lot of worse/drawing hands that I'm beating? And what do we do on this turn card? I don't have to worry about SD anymore, but I'm still beat by AA, AJ, JJ. Do we worry about this in the way villains play the hand? Or is it an instand AI in this hand?

Last edited by PokerIggy; Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 08:51 AM..
 
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Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:22 AM
(#2)
adohole's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,083
BronzeStar
this is a really though spot but i think im shoving the flop instead of calling the 2.70. when you call you are already pott comitted and i think you are ahead here just shove and hope theey dont have aa or jj.


Triple Bracelet Winner

 
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Thu Apr 11, 2013, 09:52 AM
(#3)
Rogger1999's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 489
at some point it was a coin flip where you both had decent chance to win. I wouldn't have the guts to fold it if I was either your or the Vil3. You were just less lucky then he was.

Pre-flop, you have the same chance to win as they have, after the flop you have 50% against them, so coin flip, it is like no improvement, they have so many outs to win. Hard to fold, even his bet is so small.
 
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Thu Apr 11, 2013, 01:42 PM
(#4)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Hey PokerIggy,

since both villains entered the pot in a passive way preflop I am confident that we will almost always hold the best hand here OTF. The board is highly coordinated and both signal major interest in this pot that I feel we need to get more money in right now. Since there are quite a few bad straight and flush turns I would want to get the money in here for many reasons:

- both players show they are most likely not planning on folding here given all the money that has been put into this pot

- we are most likely to stack combodraws and two pair right now without having to take tough decisions on bad turns for our hand

- we can prevent having our potential payoff or action frozen on later streets when draws brick out or a bad turn falls for villains' made hands

As played I would be pretty happy about getting the rest in on turn and river since apart from a few better boats there's still a ton of worse hands out there you can get value from. As I said initially because of the passive preflop action you can also discount AA/JJ and even some AJ combos.


Live Trainer



 
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Thu Apr 11, 2013, 02:26 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIggy View Post
SB: ( $6.50 USD ) - 45/0/0 AF: 3.7 Hands: 53
BB: ( $6.24 USD ) - 23/16/6 AF: 2.3 Hands: 1043
Villain5: no stats

Ok so the first question I have with this hand is what to do with PP when an unknown limps from EP/MP? I usually just raise smallish to let the pot grow a little more so that when I hit my set it will be easier to extract some more value, but also to not just give the SB/BB a chance to see a free flop. Is this the correct play? Do we have to make the inital raise bigger? Even when it's a UTG limp? (I really don't trust UTG limpers! )
My personal preference here is to try to continue with a Stack to Pot ratio going to the flop which favors the sort of hand I am looking to "hit". In order to do this, the FIRST thing I must do is decide what I "need" to see from 88 in order to win the pot...

- sometimes I will be facing station-y opponent(s) that I will only have a realistic chance to take down the pot if I flop a set. If so, I tend to limp along.

- sometimes I am facing loose opponent(s) PF, who fold too often on the flop. If so, I MIGHT raise a "standard" amount so that I can take the flop against fewer opponents, and also represent a wider range of hands (both unpaired "big" cards, and bigger pp) on continuation.

To be honest, this spot is a toss up (imho) on the info you've provided:

- if you limp, you MIGHT get the "cheap" flop you'd want to set mine, but the pretty aggro BB might "punish the limpers" too, forcing a fold.

- if you RAISE any sort of standard amount, you are still left with a pretty medium-high SPR going to the flop, and that does not favor mid pp agaisnt extremely station-y (like SB might be) or unknown (like V5) opponents.

I know what I WOULDN'T do, and that is try to take some sort of "middle road" with a smaller than standard raise!

There are really only 2 reasons to bet or raise in NLHE:

1) to get value into the pot when you think you are best
2) to get folds when you think you are likely beat

How does a small-ish raise work for either of those things?

- It gets SOME value in if you are best, but not as much as if you were sure you were
- It is actually LESS LIKELY to get you folds you want (of hands that are better, or have good equity, vs 88), and costs you more than a limp might.

PokerIggy, further reality is that the potential also exists for you to throw off discernable betting patterns if you are trying to make raises based upon your hand's strength. So if you are trying to take that middle of the road approach when you have set mining hands especially, you may well simply be INVITING opponents to exploit those sorts of bets when they see them. This puts me in mind of a non-poker story...:-)

During the American Civil War, the North wore Blue, and the South wore Grey. A man who lived on the border of the North and South saw all his friends declare either for the North or the South, but he simply could not decide which side he'd favor.

One day a big battle was approaching his farm. When the man was finally forced to decide, he hit on a brain storm: "Hey! I'll wear a BLUE SHIRT and GREY PANTS! That way NEITHER side will shoot at me!"

So he put on his clothes, and when the battle approached he had a little surprise...

The North indeed ddid not shoot at his Blue Shirt...but they sure did pepper his legs!
The South sure left his Grey legs alone...but they shot his chest to bits!

So just like that guy PokerIggy, in poker if you try to take a compromise, often times instead of being "safe", you wind up getting shot at by all sides!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIggy View Post
So I hit my set on a draw heavy board. FD + SD posibilities, an A and a J so people could hold AK, AQ, AJ and hit the flop.

BB checks, Villain5 bets small so I raise the pot I think. And get reraised by the BB. So he could have AA, JJ that will beat me. However there are also enough hands that I beat that could be played like that. Made hands: AJ, AK, but also draws that could be played as semi bluff: FD, SD, KK, QQ I think?

Because of the big (protection looking over)bet and because Villain5 also called (do I have the odds agains their ranges to call?) and I'm playing IP, I decided to call to see if a club came up and to decide on the turn how to continue.
Slow playing the flop here when, a) it figures to have hit at least 1 of your 2 opponents and b) there are draws which MIGHT beat you, does not make a ton of sense. If it had checked around to your bottom set, the pot is small enough you might consider a slow play, but after the V5 bets into you, I like your raise a lot.

Next step though is ranging the BB...

He is 23/16/3 PF, and these are pretty solid TAG stats for 6 max (although his 23 vpip might argue more for calling him "opportunisticly" TAG). There is a pretty good chance he raises AA (or even JJ) preflop, if only for value. As such i'd tend to down grade those a lot in my ranging, and consider more AQ/AJ type hands in his range.

So what I do is put both villains all in when it comes back to me: I am pretty sure at least 1 of them is going to call, and since I hit about the MOST I could realistically expect to hit on the flop, to then FOLD on any turn in a pretty bloated pot is pretty weak. If I am not going to fold on any turn, and if the money figures to get in on that turn anyway, then I might as well put either (or both) villains all in when there is the max chance they will call with less...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIggy View Post
So then another A came on the turn so I had to decide what to do next. As the BB checked and Villain5 bet 1/3 pot again I thought that he was on a draw and just wanted to see a cheap river I decided to just call as I didn't know if I was beat already by the BB and wanted to keep Villain5 in the pot (don't know if that was a correct play, but that was just the reason of my call). The BB then shoved AI and Villain5 called. I just decided to try to make Villain pot committed to get him AI eventually. I managed to do this on the river. Maybe a shove on the turn would had the same result.
The A on the turn was about the WORST card for you, not only because it made your opponent's hand, but also because it SEEMS like improvement for you. Nothing in poker is as expensive as a good, but 2nd best hand...

The truth is I do not think anything you might have done here would have changed things; the pot had jsut grown too big OTF to really consider tossing the under boat, and I doubt your BB opponent had enough in his stack (or a strong enough image of you) to dump top 2. If you toss in the thinking engendered by Zeebo's Theorem (“No player is capable of folding a full house on any betting round, regardless of the size of the bet.”) you were kinda done in by that turn...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIggy View Post
So should I have pushed AI on the flop as there are a lot of worse/drawing hands that I'm beating?
Yep. Everything favored it, and if you had, at least you could console yourself with the fact you got in and it took a 4 outer to run you down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIggy View Post
And what do we do on this turn card? I don't have to worry about SD anymore, but I'm still beat by AA, AJ, JJ.
If the BB were nittier than he is, then you MIGHT have found a fold.
If the pot were smaller than it was (or the effective stacks even deeper, WAY deeper), you MIGHT have found a fold.

As played, it was V5 (the "unknown") who pretty much sunk you by bloating the pot with his stack. I'm thinking AJ is the most "obvious" possibility (and don't forget A8 beats you too), adn you MIGHT have dumped the turn if you were HU with BB (especially with 1k+ hands on him); but even a HU fold of the under boat is going to be pretty hard to find. By the time it got back to you though, your odds were way too fat to give up the under boat, and to muck a boat after BB checks OTT would have been pretty weak IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerIggy View Post
Do we worry about this in the way villains play the hand? Or is it an instand AI in this hand?
Nope, this is a cooler. Be thankful at least V5 had a little bit more, so at least you got something form the side pot.

Hope it helps.

-JDean

Last edited by JDean; Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 02:29 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 12, 2013, 02:31 AM
(#6)
PokerIggy's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 214
@JDean:Nice put. I like your story about the American Civil War! It got me thinking and I will certainly keep that in mind the next time Altough I'm actually not so afraid to be exploited here as it's Zoom and I haven't got the feeling people are actually paying that good of attention at the 5NL Zoom tables (ofcourse there are some exceptions) so I just try to get to the flop a little cheaper. But I understand what you're saying so I'll keep that in mind the next time.

Quote:
sometimes I am facing loose opponent(s) PF, who fold too often on the flop...
Ofcourse! Sometimes I just forget to think about these basic things. Just another reason to raise bigger (standard) PF. Thanks for pointing me on this!

@All: Yeah. You're all right. After reading through the hand and your analysis a couple of times I can't agree more. I should have just pushed AI on OTF. I would be in with the best hand and could/would be called with worse. Ofcourse ending up against a bigger boat, but that's just unlucky.
 
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Fri Apr 12, 2013, 11:24 PM
(#7)
nanonoko's Avatar
nanonoko
(nanonoko)
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 350
Supernova
Hello,

I think your preflop play is fine. You take initiative when you raise here and like you said, you don't let players in the blinds get free looks to take you out. If you isolate the limper here and it turns into a heads up pot, I like your side a lot and it's a good spot to be in. Also no reason to worry about the position of the limp especially with no history at all.

On the flop, when the player leads into you and you raise, I think that is a fine play and definitely the correct play. Sure there is strength being shown here when the BB reraises your flop raise but you need to look at the range of hands. You are correct that there are a few hands that beat you but that is a VERY amount of hands out there and there are tons of hands that you beat. Actually the only hands that beat you are AA and JJ. The thing is, a lot of opponents will almost always reraise AA here preflop because if they call preflop, they are letting people see a cheap flop. The same with JJ although there is some possibility that they will choose to call preflop. Point being, you can discount these hands a lot from being in the range your worried about. In that case, you are crushing almost all hands here and there are a lot of hands that are willing to put chips in here with you. Hands being, 2pair straight and flush draws, etc.

So when the action gets back to you, when you call, you are letting these players get free shots at outdrawing you. There are tons of cards out there that hurt your action since a lot of the time you'll be ahead and may even cause you to fold the best hand. For example, imagine a club comes in but the player w/ AJ still bets aggressively, you may change your mind about 88 even though he's still betting. Another thing to keep in mind, you are closing the action by calling here IP, which adds to the fact you're letting people outdraw you. I think you should reraise here to keep the betting action open so that players can choose to put more money on this flop while you have massive equity.

Last edited by nanonoko; Thu Apr 10, 2014 at 08:57 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 13, 2013, 02:21 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanonoko View Post
Hello,

I think your preflop play is fine. You take initiative when you raise here and like you said, you don't let players in the blinds get free looks to take you out.
^^ This...

PokerIggy, I'd like to point out that your raise here (making it 6c to go over 1 limper) is really not far off a standard amount. As such I do not DISAGREE with it being "fine" as Randy says...

My "advice/thoughts" were directed more toward your statement in general:

"I usually just raise smallish to let the pot grow a little more so that when I hit my set it will be easier to extract some more value, but also to not just give the SB/BB a chance to see a free flop."

It is usually NOT a good idea to enter a pot for a raise over a limper at all, unless you have good, solid, SPECIFIC reasons for raising. If you do not know that your raise will work as intended in this spot, then you run the risk that a smaller than standard raise puts you into a spot that is actually trickier than either a standard raise or a limp along.

In this spot though, your raise was close enough to a "standard" (within about 2c or so), that the point is moot.
 

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