Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

10NL - Flop Raise or Float OOP

Old
Default
10NL - Flop Raise or Float OOP - Mon Apr 15, 2013, 06:37 AM
(#1)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Here's a hand that I think could be played in different ways. I'm not too happy with the passive line I took OOP which leaves a few questions on the best line to take against an unknown in BTN v Blind battle.

So villain is unknown to us and I like to call here in BB with KJs

Flop: is somewhat a dry board except for some SDs and gutshots.
I still think villain could be cbetting his entire range here and we have a gutshot, two overs, and a backdoor 2nd NFD.

I decided to call instead of raising because I was worried I'd get shoved on with worse draws like 78/QJ, two pair T9, and the probable set or over pair. In which case, I'd be forfeiting my equity in the hand. Also, it's pretty much hard to rep much by c/r and not too many turn scare cards can come that can help us stay aggressive. If it were T94dd, I think it would have been a more powerful play since our opponent will have to worry about any diamond, any K, any J, any 8.

Turn: gives me TP + gutshot but its also kind of problematic because it fills up a straight with QJ and we are still behind AA/AK/KQ/KT/K9 and the rest of 2p+ hands. And worse we don't have any reads on our opponent's tendencies.

I'm trying to workout a range here when our opponent bets the turn, and I think there are some hands that he would have checked back here (hands that still want to realize their equity and would be worried of a c/r - like: AQ,AJ,AT) so I put him on something like: { 99+, 44, AKs, K9s+, QJs, T9s, 87s, AKo, K9o+, QJo, T9o, 87o}

I call with what seems to be a 35% equity

Would you have liked a turn lead and fold to a raise instead?

River: Pretty much shuts down everything especially after he bets since I think the board now fills two SDs and most likely he would have checked back river with One pair or even 2pair tupe hands. So I opt to fold.

 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:49 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Hi geo,

Preflop I think both calling and 3-betting are reasonable, and vs. some villains (tight ones who don't steal on the button) a fold can be fine.

The tricky thing about being readless is that we have no idea how to play this profitably. Since there's no clear path one way or the other, I would often opt for the line that keeps the pot smaller out of position and just call.

The flop is actually a nice board to lead out, or check-raise, I'm not sure what check-calling accomplishes for us... if we don't hit a J, Q, or K we'll be at his mercy. I am not feeling your concern about being shoved on... there's only .65c in the pot and $9 behind. If you lead out he may raise, call, or fold, but he's not likely to shove all in for a huge overbet. If you check-raise to $1-$1.20, same thing, he's not shoving all in for $8.70 total too often. If you do get reraised you have a really comfortable fold with only 4 outs to the nuts. You don't have a ton of draw value, which is why it's better to leverage fold equity and apply pressure here, to add that to the hand equity we have.

On the turn I think as played our only real option is to check-call. We have just pulled ahead of a bunch of his range that was beating us on the flop. It's a perfect barrel card for much of said range. And an aggressive action by us now will only tend to fold out the hands we're beating and get action from hands beating us.

I would begrudgingly call the river bet. I disagree he will check back 2 pair, no one is checking back two pair here imo except maybe the most passive of players (which by definition he can not be as he's already raised the button and barreled 2 streets). A thin value bettor will be firing with a hand like AT here as your holding looks a lot like QT or JT quite frankly. And he can always be bluffing sometimes hoping you were calling twice to "keep him honest" but will release marginal pairs to a 3rd barrel.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 06:44 AM
(#3)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
The flop is actually a nice board to lead out, or check-raise, I'm not sure what check-calling accomplishes for us... if we don't hit a J, Q, or K we'll be at his mercy. I am not feeling your concern about being shoved on... there's only .65c in the pot and $9 behind. If you lead out he may raise, call, or fold, but he's not likely to shove all in for a huge overbet. If you check-raise to $1-$1.20, same thing, he's not shoving all in for $8.70 total too often. If you do get reraised you have a really comfortable fold with only 4 outs to the nuts. You don't have a ton of draw value, which is why it's better to leverage fold equity and apply pressure here, to add that to the hand equity we have.
Leading out seems a descent option; we can get folds immediately and if called we can continue our aggression on an A/K/Q/J/T. If we are raised, we fold.

Check/Raising, I don't like specifically on this flop that is somewhat dry. What are we repping with a raise? And we can get re-raised with worse specifically hands that are drawing: QJ/78; And if we do get called then I don't see too many scare cards that we can follow up on OTT (we just build a big pot OOP); I'd rather do that on a T94dd flop.

Check/Calling flop does not seem that attractive either you're right. But my plan was to c/c flop and lead turn on a blank to pick up the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I would begrudgingly call the river bet. I disagree he will check back 2 pair, no one is checking back two pair here imo except maybe the most passive of players (which by definition he can not be as he's already raised the button and barreled 2 streets). A thin value bettor will be firing with a hand like AT here as your holding looks a lot like QT or JT quite frankly. And he can always be bluffing sometimes hoping you were calling twice to "keep him honest" but will release marginal pairs to a 3rd barrel.
By the river two draws have made it: 9TQJK and 6789T; and a bet of 2$ into 3$ does not seem thin, I don't think.
 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 09:54 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Check/Raising, I don't like specifically on this flop that is somewhat dry. What are we repping with a raise?
It should look stronger specifically because the board is dry... if it's draw heavy villains will have a tendency to put us on draws. I still think leading out is better though.

Quote:
And we can get re-raised with worse specifically hands that are drawing: QJ/78
Considering that our play should look pretty strong (like a possible set), it would be fairly reckless to reraise us with a straight draw. But we don't know if this villain is reckless or not, no reads and out of position stinks.

Quote:
By the river two draws have made it: 9TQJK and 6789T; and a bet of 2$ into 3$ does not seem thin, I don't think.
You seem overly concerned with QJ and 87. If his opening range is as wide as 87o, then these specific holdings make up only a very small % of his over all range. It might be a good exercise in combinatorics to list out his range and see that.

I'm not saying I'm thrilled about it, but when we have a hand that is basically at or above the top of our range as played, and we've taken a line that will induce bluffs as well as value bets from some worse hands, I think we should call.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner




Last edited by TheLangolier; Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 09:57 AM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:16 PM
(#5)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
I'm not overly concerned with him having QJ/87 but perhaps he might be; that's why I said that there would be many hands he would check back river. And also, don't you think the sizing is a bit big for a thin value from one pair hands that we beat?
 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 12:46 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
I'm not overly concerned with him having QJ/87 but perhaps he might be; that's why I said that there would be many hands he would check back river. And also, don't you think the sizing is a bit big for a thin value from one pair hands that we beat?
I see no reason to think he's paranoid about the 2 possible flopped straight draws, nor should he be the way you've played this hand. When you check the river to him I'd think you don't have a straight personally, as most players would (and should) bet out with a straight not offer a free showdown.

I agree with you, I think it's harder to get thin value betting 2/3rds the pot as opposed to a smaller amount, but I don't assign my thought process to unknown villains, most of them are not thinking along these lines.

If you thought that the villain were going to check down hands as strong as 2 pair, that is even more reason to call imo. It would mean his bet is polarizing and there are a lot more weak hands/bluffs than there are sets+ in his range.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:18 PM
(#7)
Sjekkkk's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 141
hey geo,

interesting hand,
my opinion:

PFR is fine, player hasnt got full stack which indicates that he might be weak. Therefore I dont like the 3bet, since they will call so wide and building a pot with a marginal hand OOP is not ideal so calling is fine.

Flop play, you are asking between check-calling and raising. Personally I like to donkbet lot of my monsters (on boards that hit opponents), stone cold bluffs, my draws that on a board that marginally hits opponents range and on boards I have no idea what to do. This is exactly a situation of the latter (two). The opponent is unknown he could hit this board hard or missed it completely, therefore I like the donk bet here. I do not prefer check-raise with a gutter ball only. Personally I use the check-raise on good equity draws, monsters and stone cold bluffs.
I think the check-call is too passive here and doesnt help at all

If you had donk bet and the opponent called you could check call (pot control) /raise (semi - bluff) or just bet (aggression / info / semi bluff) the turn, at this point you should have enough info on the hand to make your decision on the river.
In the case with the hand after check-call this is also a nice donkbet opportunity, but you check-called again instead.

on the river, in this case, I am unsure what to do, usually when that happens I don't ever call. I mostly fold and sometimes bluff-raise. I think the guy his most likely holding is K-A/Q/J/10/9 or a bluff(JT/QT/J9/98/T8/AT/AQ/AJ/A9) maybe the guy has a set or straigth, but I suppose the bet would be bigger or smaller with a monster here.
good luck

Last edited by Sjekkkk; Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 05:27 PM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 05:32 AM
(#8)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
I like the lead flop, c/c turn line Sjekkk
 
Old
Default
Wed Apr 17, 2013, 08:03 AM
(#9)
darkfairy89's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 9
Am I the only one that thinks folding is the right play ?
I mean the only info lacking for me, is notes about the player (lose player, tag and so on)
The only real draw you have after the flop it's a gutshot, which is very very thin. Now I'm ok with playing from instinct and such things, but at a statistical level which in my mind, along with stats of the villain, should be the only info to analyze as pessimistic as possible, in order to make the most wise decision. For me it's about making profit, not winning a pot with "instinct" which later on could make me lose a lot more pots.

We make a call out of position hoping to hit strong draws which we don't get. He makes a c-bet which already puts us in a though spot since he can easly have A 10, also straight draws, even a slim possibility of slowplaying a set of 10. I'm not that ok with calling here since gutshot draws aren't the best taking in consideration the pot odds, and then there is the possibility of getting in even bigger trouble if we do hit a pair. Now K on the board makes you think if he has AK, if he had some sort of QJ suited, if he is still slowplaying a set. So calling again here with a medium kicker brings you again in trouble. Now he makes another bet on the river which for me is more of a value bet.
Again, more info about the villain would be very usefull since he could have started with a small pair such as 22-99 waiting for a set, and then c-beting to see if you have hit something, or he could be sneaky and just go for value from the begging.

Either way, if I didn't hit a flush draw or an open ended straight draw, two pair, it would be a fold. Maybe calling to see if I hit the nuts but fold after.
 
Old
Default
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:36 AM
(#10)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Folding to a cbet is definitely an option, but I wouldn't call it "the right play".
People miss flops ~ 70% of the time, I don't want to call with KJ and give up every time I miss nor go crazy to win every pot. But with this flop texture there could be some thin room to initiate a play to win the pot, if not OTF then maybe on later streets. In which case, a lead flop will set us up on the right track often enough here.

These things will help your redline smoothen out and consequently your bottom line.
 
Old
Default
Thu Apr 18, 2013, 09:15 PM
(#11)
SrPickwick's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 24
BronzeStar
Hi,

If you had bet or check/raised and he folded on the flop wouldn't it be just fine? Against unknown vilain I'd be happy to let him know he can't push me around. If he called, I'd take the lead again on the turn and as I'd possibly beat many of his hands he'd fold and same objective accomplished.

If he raised it's a easy fold.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com