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Leak Buster

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Leak Buster - Mon Apr 15, 2013, 08:12 AM
(#1)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
How accurate is this i thought id run it on all my hands and i got a d+ i thought thats not to bad considering my games improved drastically since the start of the hands i put through the leak buster

The leaks i had was my vpip apparently i was playing to tight which i would say is impossible as it was 18% then my pre flop raise of 8 was to low and my 3 bet percentage was to low these stats were based on an overall play from since i started playing on pokerstars

im going to start some new stats off and put it through leak buster again and see what rating i get now my games alot better im just wondering if anyone thinks this program is any good, its also said i dont steal blinds enough but that dnt seem like a good idea on a 1c 2c table as 1 player always calls maybe thats all good on higher stakes vs really tight players but im not gonna start stealing off people with 60% vp

so has anyone used leak buster is it any good?
 
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Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:26 AM
(#2)
HokyPokyToo's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,901
Hi Mike,

PSO member TrustySam has written quite extensively about her experiences with "Leak Buster." You can find her blog under Poker Community > Member Blogs. You can link directly to her thread HERE.

Good luck at the tables!

Joss


2 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by HokyPokyToo; Mon Apr 15, 2013 at 12:13 PM..
 
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Mon Apr 15, 2013, 11:57 AM
(#3)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
I personally use the Leak Buster that comes with PT4 and it sure does help. But remember to find your own comfort zone. (just a suggestion)

PT4 Leak Buster was telling me that my C-Bet was low (very low...lol) so I tried working on it. My C-Bet was going up, but my BB/100 and profit were dropping. So I decided that, that particular stat would stay low, as I like my profits and higher BB/100

Also remember that stats are just that....STATS
Work on what you need to achieve your goals
Good luck
 
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Mon Apr 15, 2013, 02:49 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
its also said i dont steal blinds enough but that dnt seem like a good idea on a 1c 2c table as 1 player always calls maybe thats all good on higher stakes vs really tight players but im not gonna start stealing off people with 60% vp
Maybe this screengrab will alter your viewpoint:

Those stats are from 78,000 hands of full ring 2NL on Pokerstars.
Notice, for example, that I was opening on the button 37% of the time, and both blinds were folding more than half the time.
When it's folded to me in the SB, I'm often opening ATC (when BB is a nit) but in the long run, I'm raising 55% of the time and taking it down two thirds of the time.
Since the steal success rate is so high, I could probably be opening even more often, especially in the cutoff, where I've mostly been opening a fairly strong range and not been getting out of line.

I'll write more on this topic on my blog when I put together pre-flop raising charts in a couple of weeks.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Mon Apr 15, 2013, 04:02 PM
(#5)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
well that looks all good arty but i dont like the idea of raising from the button with Ax missing doing a c bet getting called because then il end up checking and getting re raised by a good player or by a calling station il get called all the way down to the river and its pointless firing off agin because there end up calling with a pair of twos

i do steal from the button quite a bit with mediocre holdings like a mid pair and i know when they have nothing so i can bet half pot and make 20c here and there, as for sb and bb these plays i watched on leak finder seem abit brave for 2nl

for example

they were saying if someone raises from button and your on the bb with A 10 then you should 3bet them and pray for a fold basically if they call and check the flop you can obviously bet and you take down a nice pot with ace high im sure this is a standard play vs good players at higher stakes but at 2nl a donk will call you all the way im sure but if you show me something i dont know on your blog il takre your word for it until then though im making a good enough profit as it is

Something i would like to improve though is my non showdown winnings it on a steady fall im sure the 3bet steals would sort that out so il be looking forward to seeing what you post in your blog
 
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Mon Apr 15, 2013, 05:13 PM
(#6)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
How accurate is this i thought id run it on all my hands and i got a d+ i thought thats not to bad
Oh ya I get that too sometimes lol

I'm fond of that program, because before getting it I wasn't profitable, and then afterwards I was. But the program had different critical 'leaks' for me - mine was calling turn raises with draws when I wasn't getting odds to continue, which I guess is a pretty frequent one, and a pretty costly one. So stopping doing just that one thing helped a lot?

I don't always follow everything they say though - I like Sandtrap's advice, that if we're happy with things the way they are, then that's more important than playing just like everybody else (since the program gives guidance based on the average ranges for winning players for each stat, rather than for people as a whole).

And at 2nl I definitely didn't steal blinds or continuation bet nearly as often as the program recommended, for the same reason you mentioned - the average person at 2nl tends not to fold. Maybe now, having played a higher stake and having had the chance to get better at blinds stealing and c-betting, if I were to go back and play 2nl I might feel more comfortable doing those things more. But trying to learn how to do those two things effectively at 2nl where the fold equity is less ... for some reason it just seemed easier to learn those things up at 5nl? Like maybe my winrate could have been higher if I had been able to learn how to do those things effectively while I was at 2nl. But the way I was doing those things while I was there, felt like it was making things worse rather than better - so I just cut back on them until 5nl and that seemed to work for me.

Sometimes the stats require some interpretation though - like your VPIP to PFR ratio is interesting ... your VPIP doesn't sound too bad - probably it's a little lower because you're not blind stealing as much as they recommend. But with a VPIP of 18, having a PFR of 8 might indicate certain things, like that it's lower because you're calling a lot in the blinds possibly? Or calling utg raises with hands that risk being dominated like QJo. Or are calling and playing certain hands multiway, when maybe a squeeze might be preferable, like with AKo with 2 people already in the pot, etc?

Hopefully this goes through - my internet keeps cutting out

Last edited by TrustySam; Mon Apr 15, 2013 at 05:15 PM..
 
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Mon Apr 15, 2013, 05:53 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
erm my vp ratio to my pfr is probably not what it should be because of calling peoples raise of 3bb with KQs on the button, i geuss the leak buster would expect me to 3bet here i dnt know what do you think?

would that be profitable to 3 bet more and giving up to a raise i dont know il try it out when i get a bankroll that i can experiment with, i would do it on play money but you get called with anything
 
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Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:05 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Hi

I decided to play by leak busters rules today with the 3 betting and stealing and i managed to get a b- rating.

The question is was it more profitable than the way i was playing the answer is yes if i wasnt over playing the 3 bet strategy, my fold to a raise from the blinds was an A, but i had a B for 3 bet stealing because i was stealing to much so now im gonna look out for the best way to play like this until then il keep playing the way i was

I think arty will have the answer to this in his blog at some point so il be waiting till what he has to say lol
 
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Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:12 PM
(#9)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Hi

I decided to play by leak busters rules today with the 3 betting and stealing and i managed to get a b- rating.

The question is was it more profitable than the way i was playing the answer is yes if i wasnt over playing the 3 bet strategy, my fold to a raise from the blinds was an A, but i had a B for 3 bet stealing because i was stealing to much so now im gonna look out for the best way to play like this until then il keep playing the way i was

I think arty will have the answer to this in his blog at some point so il be waiting till what he has to say lol
 
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Tue Apr 16, 2013, 03:33 PM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I wouldn't obsess about the leakfinder grades too much, if I were you. I say this because the "perfect" stats are based on tougher games than full ring 2NL. At 2NL, we can play "exploitably" with very few bluffs. Your steals and 3-bets should usually be with hands that have value. It's only at higher stakes (10NL+) that you really need to 3-bet light against frequent steals.
At 2NL, you can be a winning player with stats like 13/5 or 18/9 and 2% for 3-bet. At higher stakes, you have to get more aggressive, but at 2NL, it's OK to call pre-flop in position with suited hands, because villains will often give you decent drawing odds post-flop. It's probably not a good idea to develop the habit of calling pre-flop too often though. While it works OK at 2NL, you'll get crushed if you move up and don't adapt.

But, as you say, I'll have more on this in my blog in the next few weeks.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue Apr 16, 2013, 04:02 PM
(#11)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
i hear you arty im not gonna be pulling any fancy moves at the minute unless i have something or if i think your a lag and your trying to make moves on me and i got something worth playing back at you with but yh il wait to see what you got for me on your blog then atleast ive got something to go by instead of making it up as i go along lol
 
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Tue Apr 16, 2013, 05:02 PM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
erm my vp ratio to my pfr is probably not what it should be because of calling peoples raise of 3bb with KQs on the button, i geuss the leak buster would expect me to 3bet here i dnt know what do you think?

would that be profitable to 3 bet more and giving up to a raise i dont know il try it out when i get a bankroll that i can experiment with, i would do it on play money but you get called with anything
Hi mike, sorry for not getting back to you yesterday - thought I'd have time since I thought it must have been around bedtime in Europe? But I wasn't thinking about the fact that you'd be playing again before I answered today - I should have answered yesterday. Feel like my writing's guaranteed to get people to sleep, so I better answer now even though it's quiet ...

Anyways just kind of babbling ... well that's great to hear that you took a leap of faith with one of the suggestions and had positive results!! But yeah I really like Arty's words of caution too. There's always that question with poker of whether we can trust the learning materials to help more than it hurts, and probably I had an easier time than most when I got Leak Busters since I wasn't having luck any other way in trying to figure out what I was doing wrong - like it kind of felt like it was worth a shot because I had nothing to lose and everything to gain? And also the feedback it gave me (to fold when I wasn't getting odds to continue on the turn with draws) was verifiable with odds calculators? But when I was struggling at 2nl, Arty hadn't yet joined the team, and so there was no 2nl guide, so Leak Busters was all I had

Not sure if your VPIP/PFR ratio is anything to worry about or not - that stuff I listed were all the situations I could think of that might cause your numbers to be the way they are. But if you're not doing any of those things, and aren't limping into pots a lot, then maybe it's okay?

I like that alternative you've taken of trying out first some of the other suggestions that you're thinking might be more promising. One of the other 'critical' leaks the program spotted for me was check-calling out of position too much with middle pairs - after cutting that out I think my w$sd went up? Are you getting that one too? I think a lot of us might start off having very similar leaks like those - staying too long in pots with draws, check-calling with middle pairs, going to showdown to often with TPTK, etc?

Looking forward to more of Arty's guide too
 
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Wed Apr 17, 2013, 08:38 AM
(#13)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Hey sam the only leaks i had on the leak buster was my vpip being to low and my pfr to vpip ratios were not close enough and also the 3 betting and stealing blinds

I haven't had any other leaks i wont ever chase a gut shot after the flop unless the odds are right which il then fold on the turn if i miss anyway as your chances of hitting are very rare as far as im concerned but if i have outs for the straight and flush il pay to see because its very rare i get that many outs so i think its worth a shot even if someone shoved the flop i might be tempted to call, as for mid pairs ive hit on the flop if someone raises pot im folding because they will also raise the turn and unless you hit a set or two pair your going to have to fold and its just better to fold and wait for a better hand, However if they raised pre and betted the flop i might call with mid pair and if they check the turn you can normally bet and take down the pot, it depends on the player.

When i lose at showdown with a 1 pair its because they shove the river when a flush hits or a straight so i just fold my tptk, im pretty good at folding in cash games now, where i do need help mainly is the 3 betting, stealing and tournaments. Im pretty good at the start of a tourney i lose a little but gain alot when i hit but then when the blinds get big my tight play style just eats my blinds up which comes back to i need to start stealing blinds here and there you cant rely on getting the best cards pre flop when blinds are getting so big as with cash games il wait all day long for the right cards and position etc.

I was playing 1 of the pso home games last night and i was on the BB with 3c 4c and villain raised to 500 someone called so i though il call and shove if i hit because i needed chips i was well under 10 bb even though i was doing fairly well throughout the tourney anyway i hit my 3 on a 9 7 3 flop or something like that and i shoved, 1 called and 1 folded, i didnt expect either of them to hit that flop so a shove seemed like a good move unless they hit a set or had pocket 10s anyway he won with pocket 8s, what i would like to know is did i make the right move because if i were him i wouldn't have called my shove with 8s on a 9 high board when i knew that that player was really tight i had like 10vp and 8pfr

I dnt know what do you think?
 
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Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:17 AM
(#14)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Mike I wouldn't worry about the leakbuster too much right now. I think your time would be better spent focusing on poker theory. Like reading a good poker book, live training, or hand analyses. Doesn't leakbuster compare your stats to the biggest winners at your stake or something? It is hard to interpret your stats correctly if that is the case.

Also,
Quote:
they were saying if someone raises from button and your on the bb with A 10 then you should 3bet them and pray for a fold basically if they call and check the flop you can obviously bet and you take down a nice pot with ace high im sure this is a standard play vs good players at higher stakes
It is hard to adjust your stats correctly. For example, if you want to raise your VPIP by 5%, it doesn't mean play 5% more of the time with any hands. What you need to do is widen the specific range of hands you are willing to call/raise pre-flop with. Similarly, regarding your quote above, the 3-bet% leakbuster is giving you can be misinterpreted. It may look like leakbuster is telling you to 3-bet a range of AT+, but I don't think it is. What that 3-bet% really represents is a composite of two ranges. It consists of a 3-bet for value hand range (maybe AQo+ for example), and a 3-bet semi-bluff range (maybe a few smallish PP and a couple suited connectors, low suited Ax). The total of this composite range might be the same percentage as AT+, but clearly it is very different.

I've never used leakbuster so I may be a bit off here, but how does this sound to you Mike?
 
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Wed Apr 17, 2013, 10:30 AM
(#15)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
I was playing 1 of the pso home games last night and i was on the BB with 3c 4c and villain raised to 500 someone called so i though il call and shove if i hit because i needed chips i was well under 10 bb even though i was doing fairly well throughout the tourney anyway i hit my 3 on a 9 7 3 flop or something like that and i shoved
I don't think this is a great play. In fact, when you're down to 10bb or less, it's a leak to call pre-flop in any seat, let alone the blinds. With a stack that short, you should be shoving pre-flop or folding. Shoving provides the most fold equity, but if two players have already entered the pot, then at least one is calling your shove, because they'll have great pot odds. Since 43s is such a weak hand, I'd fold in this spot, and hope to have a better hand to shove 9bb in the small blind or on the button.
Dave's video on Fold Equity will help you understand this crucial concept: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...14-Fold-Equity


Bracelet Winner
 
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Wed Apr 17, 2013, 05:13 PM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Mike

Arty would know better about the tourney call


Just went and checked my Leak Busters though, and the last time I ran it on this computer (it's my old computer) was in early December, and it listed 73 leaks for me And that was with a grade of +B, so ... there's always ways to improve with poker I guess

Here's some of ones that were given higher priority (old leaks of mine that have since been fixed!!):






What I like about the program is that, my winrate at the time was better than my actual one because Zoom can be patchy variance-wise. So I felt like the program was good for identifying leaks at those times when we're doing well, but can't tell that it's really variance?

And then of course when the variance is bad and everything's going wrong, it provides a list of (potential) leaks, all prioritized. I put the 'potential' in parentheses because I guess it's up to each person to decide whether or not they feel the feedback from the program is accurate and reliable for that particular stat in light of one's game as a whole. Mostly I've found the tips to be helpful, but I did wind up finding attempts to increase my c-betting at 2nl to be more detrimental to my winrate than helpful, so ...


Just some random thoughts - there's always the PSO resources if you haven't had the chance to check those out.

There's a cash game class this weekend, which should be good: Live Training: Asking the Right Questions
There's the video library: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/articles/poker-videos
And Hand Analysis too, where you can ask for more specific advice for individual hands - Arty's there

Overall, guess I'm saying I give Leak Busters a thumbs up, but that's jmo

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Apr 17, 2013 at 06:11 PM.. Reason: added the wrong link
 

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