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is there any point ?

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is there any point ? - Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:08 AM
(#1)
frasierbeams's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
At micro-low stakes is there any point in playing poker when most players don't understand 3bet squeezes , or what 4 and 5bets might mean when they habitually call one raise then another or another because the have 9 high and it is suited .

If you wait and only play premium starting hands you'd be lucky if you had any fold equity by this point . Sometimes it seems that at these stakes you best just call how much of your stack with ATC and just hope you get lucky , because by trying to play poker is certain death .

Yes I know someone is going to say that we shouldn't be results oriented ; that good players suffer a higher frequency of 'bad beats' ; focus on your decision making ; value bet donkeycallers to death when you have the best of it etc. But it is a bit much to stomach when you do all these things and have little to show for it .
 
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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:24 PM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
Is there any point in paying $20 to see your favourite football team lose almost every week? Lots of people do that. I might think they're crazy, but if they enjoy themselves it's fine with me.

Finding motivation to play poker can be hard, but there are definitely some good reasons to play microstakes.
It won't make you rich, but the micros are your training ground, where you can make some pocket money while developing your game. The things you learn in the micros are definitely useful if you plan to move up to higher stakes to try and make a decent living from the game.
While it's true that certain plays don't work so well in the micros, precisely because bad players have no idea what your plays "mean", there are all kinds of other adjustments you can make, and I think it's the ability to make adjustments that separates the great players from the merely good ones.

Waiting around patiently for aces might be profitable in 2NL cash games, but in tournaments, this style won't be profitable, because of the rising blinds. You have to build your stack by finding other ways to exploit your opponents. And that's the fun part for me. Over the last couple of months, I've transitioned from cash games to tourneys, and I've found it really interesting to learn about the adjustments required. My style has had to change from nit/tag to semi-LAG.

So "the point" - for me, at least - is that my playing style is constantly evolving. I might not be making much money in the micros, but I get pleasure from learning more and more about the game, trying new styles, and adapting to conditions.
It's kind of like the way I feel about chess. I used to always open with king pawn to E4. Then that got boring, so I tried out some different openings. I didn't win with them very often at first, because I was out of my comfort zone, but trying them out put me into new situations and helped me with my overall game.

If you're bored and fed up with your current game, or not making money, maybe you could try one of the other poker variants. Give Omaha or Courchevel a try. Learning a new game or changing your playing style is a great way to gain new motivation.


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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 02:27 PM
(#3)
frasierbeams's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
On January 1st 2013 I started with a bankroll of $0 and have manged to gring that up to $134 , $155 at its highest , from playing freerolls , then .1/.2 zoom nl when I had some funds , and then as it increased further , some micro 7-card stud more micro nl zoom , and satellites to bigger tourneys .I do this because I set myself a goal which I fully expect will take a long time to achieve if I ever do achieve it . But with proper bankroll management and my current bankroll I am limited to what stakes and buy-ins I can play . However , it is just so frustrating being stuck at diddy level where you can expect alot more bad beats etc. as the standard of play is so poor even when one is constantly adjusting one's game for different opponents , situations etc . It is a grind .
 
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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 02:39 PM
(#4)
matt0278's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 65
So you are complaining about people calling 5 bets with 9 high. I dont know about you but when I have a premiuim hand like KK AA I WANT THEM TO CALL EVERYTIME
 
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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 04:04 PM
(#5)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by frasierbeams View Post
At micro-low stakes is there any point in playing poker when most players don't understand 3bet squeezes , or what 4 and 5bets might mean when they habitually call one raise then another or another because the have 9 high and it is suited .

If you wait and only play premium starting hands you'd be lucky if you had any fold equity by this point . Sometimes it seems that at these stakes you best just call how much of your stack with ATC and just hope you get lucky , because by trying to play poker is certain death .

Yes I know someone is going to say that we shouldn't be results oriented ; that good players suffer a higher frequency of 'bad beats' ; focus on your decision making ; value bet donkeycallers to death when you have the best of it etc. But it is a bit much to stomach when you do all these things and have little to show for it .

frasier I think in micros your best path is going to be to implement the "KISS" strategy---Keep It Simple Stupid.

That's the mindset I always tried to use. Just value bet the chasers to death,don't try any fancy moves against the multitude of droolers (on more competent regs yes...) and let them beat themselves. Squeeze plays and the like tend to be an exercise in futility against most of these players as their thinking is so 1st level...they can only see the the cards in front of them and not much else.

Joe had a great quote in here a few weeks back about playing one level above your opponents being a good thing,but playing 2 or more levels above them will tend to bite you in the backside. I think that's pretty much true for the micro-stake levels.
 
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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 05:02 PM
(#6)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,422
frasierbeams you have done well to build up form nothing...in frerolls mainly because the other players dont play so well...its a freeroll so dont expect pros...if they were all pros you wouldnt have done so well (probably)

I hear ya as bad beats is never a nice thing to be on the end of but accept it as variance and part of the game(i had trouble with this and still do) and remember AA is supposed to lose 1 in 5 tiems against 22

the human brain somehow remembers the bad things but what you should be concenrating on is ...wow i done good ive built up form nothing to over $100 and I also had bad beats along the way and sometime i can try to play higher

beating bad players is easier than beating good ones in anything

If you are getting a lot of bad beats yuou are playing well(maybe a bit too tight) and just getting unlucky but everyone in the long run will have the same luck or very similar

if you toss a coin 100 times you will be surprised at how many heads and tails you will get and the more tosses eventually it will be exactly 50/50% what im trying to say here is lot of tosses(long term) luck (50/50) will even itself out

But poker is about the long term and you have won in the long term(well short to medium so far)

when you first do move up you may need bad beats to win

I read somewhere that professionals can go 20 games without a win/cash so some months you will be lucky and others not so no matter how good you are

the only way to avoid ba dbeat sis to cheat lol and I wouldnt recommend that !

good luck

rolo

ps just ran KK into AA yet again...no suckout..this time and AK into KK a family member says its fixed but it was a freeroll and pokersites are audited and wouldnt risk lots of profits by fixing it
 
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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 05:43 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485


Glad i didn't get involved in this, this was my best hand since i started the tourney like 45 min ago as you can see i have to play bingo to get a chance at winning any pot but if you think this is bad you wanna go and play the 100k privilage free roll

Best part is it happens so regularly where they win with junk, everyones saying you want these players at your table im sure you do to a degree but because they do it so often you miss out on alot of winning hands i might lose all my chips to blinds before i even get a JJ or better but then this happens LMAO




Dont know about you lot but i dont want to get all in with JJ when i know for fact 100% im getting called
i think all these guys have been watching these vids like spacegravy is it and think they can shove atc any time they like which is good for us when only 1 or two players are doing it

Last edited by mike2198; Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 05:51 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 05:54 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485


Glad i didn't get involved in this, this was my best hand since i started the tourney like 45 min ago as you can see i have to play bingo to get a chance at winning any pot but if you think this is bad you wanna go and play the 100k privilage free roll
 
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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 07:30 PM
(#9)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Certainly in terms of cash games I can understand what Frazier is saying here. I play very few tournaments but quite a bit of cash anything from 2nl to 25nl. I play very LAG most of the time and would gauge myself as break even overall. I do not use a HUD but I do review my hands and I get very few premium hands over all. I reviewed a recent session of over 5k Hands and did not get As or Ks once.

Actually recently I decided to play quite a bit of 2nl and really nit it up, I lost ten buying in less than three hours of zoom and the 20 buyins the next evening. I actually came to the same conclusion that I had before that I am just not that lucky which is why I play purely recreationally now. I went back to my old style, recouped my losses and will continue to happily play that way. My bankroll remains static, I make maybe a few dollars but I no longer worry myself over the 2 and 3 outer suck outs and from time to time I make the odd big suck out myself, I know of one player here who got burnt by me a few times when I made really minus ev plays but I truly receive many more than I give.

So if it really gets to the point where it is tearing you up, I just advise to let it go and forget about poker as a money making endeavor but rather something just to enjoy and if you are losing a lot of money even though you play the percentages and play the game well, then maybe a break will allow you to see where you are going wrong.

Cheers,

TC
 
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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 08:20 PM
(#10)
frasierbeams's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
I submitted this post as something of a catharsis . I fully expect at these microstakes to receive more bad beats , but I generally let these pass very quickly .

Yes humans do tend to remember the bad things more easily ; that is probably why we never learn from history and as a species continue to make the same mistakes time and time again .

As for the coin flip scenario the 'expected outcome ' over a sample size would 50% ; but real outcome and expected outcome based on probability rarely ever tally 100% . thats where standard deviation , normal distributions and confidence intervals have their place .

For example , imagine flipping a coin 1 trillion times : most rational people would expect with a sample this size to see an equal distribution of heads and tails , but that is not to say that of those 1 trillion coin flips you would never see 1 trillion heads in a row : highly improbable but not impossible ( according to the laws of large and very large numbers ) .

Anyway as for the goal i set myself ( $0 - $? ) I knew that i would have to start off at with freerolls , then play alot of diddy stakes tourneys and cash . I was just forgetting that more advanced plays rarely work at these levels - so can only blame myself . I can see myself playing boring nit poker for a good while yet .
 
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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 08:25 PM
(#11)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by frasierbeams View Post
On January 1st 2013 I started with a bankroll of $0 and have manged to gring that up to $134 , $155 at its highest , from playing freerolls , then .1/.2 zoom nl when I had some funds , and then as it increased further , some micro 7-card stud more micro nl zoom , and satellites to bigger tourneys .I do this because I set myself a goal which I fully expect will take a long time to achieve if I ever do achieve it . But with proper bankroll management and my current bankroll I am limited to what stakes and buy-ins I can play . However , it is just so frustrating being stuck at diddy level where you can expect alot more bad beats etc. as the standard of play is so poor even when one is constantly adjusting one's game for different opponents , situations etc . It is a grind .
It's certainly a grind. Would it help if I pointed out that you're doing better than 80% or more of players at your level? 70% of players aren't making any money at all! Most are losing. How about if I told you it took me almost a year to make my first $100 playing 2NL? (50,000 hands takes a long time at 1,000 hands a week!)
But now the bad news. It's only going to get harder when you move up. Your winrate will usually drop by about a third for each step up in stakes you take. When your winrate declines, that means bigger downswings and longer break-even periods. Losing 5 buy-ins at 2NL can hurt like hell. Imagine losing 10 buy-ins at 25NL, or 15 buy-ins at 50NL. This is the sort of thing that serious players have to deal with.

It's become a terrible cliché, but poker is not a "get rich quick" scheme. If it was, then everyone would be playing poker. If you want to make as much money from poker as an accountant makes from his job, then you've got to work at your "job" just as hard as an accountant works at his. Just be thankful that you can make money playing online poker while you're lounging around in your pyjamas. Other people have to wear a damn uniform to get paid!


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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:10 PM
(#12)
frasierbeams's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
I currently play approx. 1000 hands evert 2 hours and have ben doing this maybe 4 days a week , 5 or 6 hours at a time : its still a grind ,and i don't expect to get rich quick . And yes I too used to be paid to wear the uniform .
 
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Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:34 PM
(#13)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
On January 1st 2013 I started with a bankroll of $0 and have manged to gring that up to $134 , $155 at its highest

If your confident enough that you can be a winning player at higher stakes why dont you just put some money on stars instead of building a bankroll if i was winning 150 in free rolls i would of put my card on stars and jumped some tables and if your playing 1k hands every 2 hours well surely you could risk couple hundred quid or so

Last edited by mike2198; Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 01:38 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:04 PM
(#14)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,422
moxie gives good advice and everything i read from arty (i dont usually big up anyone unless they are a trainer :P)i not only beleive is true but he explains it in a simple way so novices liek me can understand

ty arty

if you disagree with somehtign hes typed reread it again and 99/100 hes right ..not everyones perfect

your lucky if you know advanced moves ...but use them when you move up wish i knew them

ive bene wanting to move up for along tiem and somehtings stopping me (and its not the bankroll)

try to train your mind ...oh my bankroll is increasing rather than worrying about all the bad luck(beats) or bankroll is decreasing i need to improve



dont usually big anyone up excpet the trainers but reread everything arty put ..and if you dont agree with it reread it again.99% of what he put I believe and he does explain it simply so a beginner liek me can understand

I only(well mainly) play tournamnets

honestly frasier toss that coin 200 times and youwil be amazed how it zones into 50/50 do it (you could grab 10 coins and throw them soi tbe quicker as all the events(tosses) are independent of each other the probability of it landing on heads is 0.5 and tails is the same...if it doe sland on its edge hahaha retoss...and the more you add the closer it will zone into 50/50 i promise you...if you thinkabout itif you had a 48 sided coin lol and you went allin with AA and got called you know full well in the long run you will win minus the bad beats

ok it might not be exactly 50/50 butthe more you do itit will converge to 50/50

you say boring nit i say im playing a fun game in a certain way to reach my first bankroll goal so i can havea shot at next level

Arty you say winrates drop of f by about 1/3 in cash games .....what would be your estimate for 45 man sng please?

just so as i know my ROI for $1 so would be interested what my target for higher would be

the losing at higher level is where bankroll management coems in and you have to go back down to rebuild your roll or face bankruptcy

well done mike nice 1

at least we are lucky enough to be able to have the choice to play unlike US

gl rolo

Last edited by rolo834; Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 11:06 PM.. Reason: additional info
 
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Sun Apr 21, 2013, 11:04 AM
(#15)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
Arty you say winrates drop of f by about 1/3 in cash games .....what would be your estimate for 45 man sng please?

just so as i know my ROI for $1 so would be interested what my target for higher would be

the losing at higher level is where bankroll management coems in and you have to go back down to rebuild your roll or face bankruptcy
I haven't put enough tourney volume in yet to provide accurate figures for how my ROI has changed since moving from 25c games to 1.50s, but I would estimate that it will reduce by a similar margin to the drop that occurs with each step up in cash games.
e.g. If you had an ROI of 30% in 25c games, it might drop by a third when you move to 50c games, where your ROI might be 20%. At the next stage after that it might fall by another third, so you're at about 13% ROI in $1 games.
If you're crushing the 25c games for 50% ROI, then you might not have much of a drop off until you're playing buy-ins of over $4. (In my limited SnG experience, I've not found the players at the $1.50 level to be any better than the 25c maniacs, so my ROI has remained roughly the same at each level so far).

Bankroll management is certainly crucial. I've now got enough money in my account to play $1.50s comfortably, but I didn't want to risk playing them while I was under-rolled, even though I was fairly sure I'd be able to beat them, because you never know when the poker gods are going to turn nasty.


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Sun Apr 21, 2013, 11:34 AM
(#16)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
How many hands will you play on a table when your losing before jumping on anew table, just wondering because i was running a table last night doing really well and thought il open another two and i couldn't win a cent so i closed them and i decided to see if this TAG on my table was multi tabling and i saw he had 12 tables open 4 of which he doubled up and the rest were break even and looked like he lost a dollar here and there.

So i decided to join 2 of the tables he was winning on and 2 he was not and guess what happened the tables he was winning on i doubled up and the losing tables i lost like 30c each, now i wouldn't say they were easier players i was just flopping really nice hands so i decide to follow another tag who was battering tables and i got the same really good cards, ive sat on tables for like 200+ hands and not hit a single hand worth getting your chips in the middle with just small pots then other tables its just big pots, so i was just wondering how many hands of terrible cards and flops do you play before you find a new table.
 
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Sun Apr 21, 2013, 01:05 PM
(#17)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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Mike - Changing tables when your losing is a perfectly reasonable strategy. One hand doesn't have any effect on the next, but every hand does have an effect on player's minds. If you start losing a lot at a particular table your table 'image' can be damaged. People may be more inclined to play hands with you and even make random aggressive moves against you. It's not a good situation to be in so leaving can be a good idea.

fraiserbeams - Best advice I can give is to whole-heartedly make your goal while playing poker to be to make the best decisions possible. If that is truly all you care about then every time you think you played a hand perfectly but lost you can shrug it off with a smile on your face and move on. Easier said than done of course. We all want to make some money while playing poker. Nobody gets into poker wanting to give their money away that is for sure.
 
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Sun Apr 21, 2013, 01:17 PM
(#18)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
How many hands will you play on a table when your losing before jumping on anew table,
I don't make decisions based on short-term results. I make decisions based on how I assess my long term expectations. If I've lost a stack or two, but I'm on a table with a bunch of terrible players, I'm staying on that table, because I expect to more than cover my losses. If I've been losing money because the other players appear to be better than me, then I'll go elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
just wondering because i was running a table last night doing really well and thought il open another two and i couldn't win a cent so i closed them and i decided to see if this TAG on my table was multi tabling and i saw he had 12 tables open 4 of which he doubled up and the rest were break even and looked like he lost a dollar here and there. So i decided to join 2 of the tables he was winning on and 2 he was not...
If someone's multitabling, he's usually a winning player. Why would you want to play against a winning player? I want to play against BAD players, not good ones.
Now it may be that this player had chosen those particular tables because some members of his "fish list" were sitting on them. If that was the case, then joining him to go fishing would make some sense, but generally speaking, I'd look for tables where I'm the only shark. I want the fish all to myself!
I'll write a bit more about table and seat selection in a blog at some point, but it's some way off for now.


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Sun Apr 21, 2013, 01:45 PM
(#19)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Yh i wasn't following him to play with him, we didn't get in any pots together anyway i just thought i would have a look at these tables he was smashing and it turned out to be good, there was fish on every table i was on and some tables i just couldnt win a cent
 
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Sun Apr 21, 2013, 01:45 PM
(#20)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,422
thanks Arty i guessed you may say about 1/3rd estimate but useful to know...as that way I wil be able to judge whether im better off stayin@$1 or im doin ok at the next

I only play tournaments but if i was winning at a certian table/tables I would definitely stay time permitting yet if I was out classed/outplayed then I would leave(do not have this nice choice in tours though obv !

like rocker says if you ar econstantly making good decisions in the long run you will win...its justthatthe long term can be a longggg time

sorry about thedouble post yesterdya/repeating myself was very tired

rolo
 

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