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AQo Flop flush draw in 3Bet Pot

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AQo Flop flush draw in 3Bet Pot - Fri Apr 19, 2013, 12:18 PM
(#1)
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Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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$0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players


UTG: 92 BB
MP: 186 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 67.25 BB
Hero (SB): 123 BB
BB: 100 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q A

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB raises to 9 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop: (18 BB, 2 players) 6 4 2
Hero bets 11 BB, BB calls 11 BB

Turn: (40 BB, 2 players) 7
Hero bets 24 BB, BB calls 24 BB

River: (88 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero bets 76 BB, BB calls 56 BB and is all-in

Made a standard open raise from the SB with AQo with the A of clubs. Villain in BB 3-bets me and I decide to make the call. Villain is marked as a reg, which in my case means they are at least a decent player with TAG stats seen multitabling. Not much history with villain, but he has reasonable TAG stats something like 24/20/3 VPIP/PFR/3B.

A major issue with my game is flop/turn aggression and one way I am working to improve that is to play my good draws more aggressively. That is my main line of thought when I flop nut flush draw + overs.

I feel like I could have played this hand a better way. Possibly going for check-raise on flop? I think if I went for a check-raise the plan would be to bet out strong on the turn and river. What about more passive lines such as calling a flop c-bet? I did believe that villain was 3-betting for value in this hand and most likely had overpairs and overcards on the flop.

edit: Also, was shoving river way more suicidal than I initially thought? Better to just give up?

Last edited by RockerguyAA; Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 12:23 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 19, 2013, 01:36 PM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Blind vs Blind often leads to tricky spots. Your raise is obviously standard, but I'm not sure I like the call. It's a big leak to call 3-bets oop, especially with hands like AQ, as you'll miss the flop 70% of the time and often fold to the c-bet.

A reg will usually be 3-betting more often in BvB, both for value (your raising range is wide, so he can 3-bet for value fairly wide too) or as a bluff. But this villain's overall 3-bet rate is only 3%, so he's probably not 3-betting light all that often. I think I'd give him credit for something like TT+ and AK, and make a reluctant fold pre-flop. It's far better, imo, to give up 3bb here, than play a bloated pot oop with a hand that is likely dominated.

As played, the mono flop is pretty good for you, as you have the NFD. Unfortunately, I don't think you have much fold equity here. Villain's range is heavily weighted towards overpairs. You have the , but this villain is never folding KK-TT or AK with a club. You should be able to get him off two red jacks or tens, however.
Being aggressive with draws is often a good plan against TAGs (and especially nits), because they have a fold button, but let's think about how villain perceives your range.
Because you called the pre-flop 3-bet, you're not going to have flopped a flush very often. Hands like Tc9c aren't in your range. You'd probably have 4-bet with AcKc and AcQc to regain the initiative. Villain is therefore probably putting you on something like JJ-99, with or without the flush draw. If he has a bigger pair, he's confident he has the best hand, so he's going to let you bluff off your chips.

I wouldn't have called pre, but on this flop, I'm probably going to play it passively and check-call. Taking the passive line will pretty much turn your hand face up ("I haz flush draw"), but villain will probably give you a decent price to chase the draw. You also have implied odds on your side, as you both started with 100bb+. (If villain has KK with the Kc, you'll win his stack if the flush comes)
If you'd check-raised the flop, I think your fold equity goes up a bit (JJ-TT are often folding), but you'll also be vulnerable to a big raise or shove (by QQ+) that takes away your drawing odds.

As played, I think it's pretty suicidal to fire three barrels, because villain's simply not going to give you credit for a made flush. The board also ran out with all cards lower than TT. Villain is always calling the river with his overpairs.
I definitely think you should slow down on the turn. The flop bet got called and the 7s changes nothing. I think it's spewy to barrel here. Just check-call (half pot) or check-fold (more than half pot), to minimise your losses, as the pot is getting bigger and your equity is getting smaller.

Cheers,
Arty


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Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:02 PM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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Thank you for the thorough analyses Arty! I hadn't played for a week and wasn't in top shape state-of-mind wise. Definitely played my C game that night. I think that is what lead me to make some crazy decisions like shoving the river on this hand.

Your assumptions about what villain thinks I have seems very logical to me. I think I actually failed to consider his point of view during this hand. Sounds like I wasn't telling the story that I wanted to.

I'm not sure I agree with not calling his 3-bet pre-flop. I should have a couple hands in my call range right? Or do you think it would be better to polarize my range completely and never call (from the SB)? I mean, my call range is probably something like 99-JJ, KQs, AJs, AQo, AQs. If I move AQo to fold/raise then I basically should do the same with the other broadways, so that leaves me with 99-JJ in my call range. 99-JJ are similar in strength too though so if AQo is not worth calling then maybe they are not either?


Also, villain had QQ.

Last edited by RockerguyAA; Sat Apr 20, 2013 at 12:05 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 20, 2013, 12:44 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I don't think you should be calling 3-bets out of position with any hand really, except when you have good odds to set-mine (which happens occasionally, when stacks are deep and/or the 3-bet was small). It's just so difficult to make money oop without the initiative. I know it feels "wrong" to fold hands like AQ, KQs or TT, but villain's range is ahead of those hands. Why would you want to play a big pot when you have the worst hand?

I'm not sure if you have a tracker, but if you set up a filter for "oop=true, called 3-bet=true", you'll probably find that you're losing money with almost every hand. Calling 3-bets OOP is one of the most common and most expensive leaks. You'll immediately have an edge over your opponents if you fix this leak. You should be happy when villains call your 3-bets OOP and give you money, because they won't recoup their losses if you don't make the same mistake.

You can call 3-bets in position with hands like AJs, KQs and pairs, but out of position there just isn't a positive expectation, because when you hit your hand, it's hard to get value for it. (A check-raise or a donk lead for value will often fold out all the hands you beat).

If you're going to play a bloated 3-bet pot, then you want to do it when you are driving the action. As soon as you give villain the keys to the bus, he can take you to value town. Don't give him that opportunity. Let him have your 3bb now, because when the roles are reversed, you'll be winnng a whole lot more.


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Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:16 PM
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Posts: 1,089
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Considering there is not much history with villain and his 3-bet stat is 3% so far, I agree that I shouldn't be calling with AQo or anything really. 3% is a very tight range. However, as an opponent's 3-bet% increases I do think it allows for some opportunities to call OOP. That said, being OOP I should be playing a tighter range than when IP vs the same 3-bet%. So I guess calling opportunities should be very rare still vs a moderate 3-bet% and rare vs larger 3-bet%.

I will need to dig deeper into this. I have to figure out where that line is of having/not having a calling range when facing a 3-bet OOP. I mean, if someone 3-bets 100% of the time when you are OOP, surely there will be a range of hands you can call with profitably? The question in my mind is where the line is drawn.
 
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Sat Apr 20, 2013, 01:48 PM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
If there was a crazy player that was 3-betting 100% of the time, I'd be more inclined to widen my 4-bet value range, because I'd expect him to call with worse pretty often. You could call with more marginal hands, but taking the initiative with a 4-bet gives you the additional benefit of sometimes winning the pot without even seeing a flop. (And if a villain has already 3-bet, it's very nice to win all that dead money uncontested).


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Sat Apr 20, 2013, 02:56 PM
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RockerguyAA's Avatar
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Posts: 1,089
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That is a good point Arty. I'm going to try and eliminate my calling range from OOP and see how things go.
 

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