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Lion>Otter Bankroll Builder

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Lion>Otter Bankroll Builder - Thu Apr 25, 2013, 08:18 AM
(#1)
Lion>Otter's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 11
I am new to PSO and would like to take part in the bankroll builder promotion. Thanks!

cheers
 
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Thu Apr 25, 2013, 08:38 AM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Welcome to PokerSchoolOnline!


Be sure to read THIS just to be be sure of exactly what's on offer with the Bankroll Builder promotion.


>>click here<< for a complete overview of what PSO has to offer.

We will advise within 24 hours as to whether or not you will be eligible for this promotion. Please check back this time tomorrow!


Thank you for being a member of www.pokerschoolonline.com and best of luck to you at the tables!


John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Apr 25, 2013, 04:25 PM
(#3)
HokyPokyToo's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,902
Hi Lion>Otter,

You are eligible for the Bankroll Builder promotion, good job!
NB: Bookmark this page so that you'll find it easily in the future

First Step

Watch the following video and pay special attention to the tips on retrieving and saving your hand history from PokerStars. This will be important for the rest of your promotional journey.


After wacthing this please play some PLAY MONEY FULL-RING (9-Handed) tables at PokerStars and using the Hand Replayer post a hand here in this thread that you have questions about.
Here is a video on how to use the hand replayer.


Then when you have that done please have a go at the Poker Basics Course and pass the quiz at the end of the course.
So you have 3 steps to do to begin with and when you have all 3 done we will award you with your first bonus.

1) Watch the 'Getting Started' video
2) Post a 'PLAY MONEY' hand here in the Forum using the Hand Replayer
3) Pass the Poker Basic course.

Let us know as soon as you have all 3 steps completed.

Best of Luck!


2 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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hand history question - Fri Apr 26, 2013, 07:48 AM
(#4)
Lion>Otter's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 11
I'm not sure what to do in this hand. I know with so many players seeing the flop, a pair of Aces is hardly the nuts, but on the other hand players in these play money games often call with much worse so I didn't feel like folding was correct either.

PokerStars Hand #97710155555: Tournament #724416249, 1850+150 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2013/04/26 7:30:24 ET
Table '724416249 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: JAWRULE (780 in chips)
Seat 2: Lion>Otter (1760 in chips)
Seat 3: Shankersbend (3555 in chips)
Seat 5: wionking (1320 in chips)
Seat 7: biancaliz (3160 in chips)
Seat 8: carola66628 (1485 in chips)
Seat 9: Fatcobra55 (1770 in chips)
JAWRULE: posts small blind 15
Lion>Otter: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lion>Otter [Jh Ac]
Shankersbend: folds
wionking: calls 30
biancaliz: calls 30
carola66628: calls 30
Fatcobra55: folds
JAWRULE: calls 15
Lion>Otter: checks
*** FLOP *** [3s 4h Ad]
JAWRULE: bets 150
Lion>Otter: raises 150 to 300
wionking: calls 300
biancaliz: folds
carola66628: calls 300
JAWRULE: raises 450 to 750 and is all-in
Lion>Otter: raises 980 to 1730 and is all-in
wionking: folds
carola66628: calls 1155 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (275) returned to Lion>Otter
*** TURN *** [3s 4h Ad] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [3s 4h Ad Kd] [3c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Lion>Otter: shows [Jh Ac] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
carola66628: shows [4d 4s] (a full house, Fours full of Threes)
carola66628 collected 1410 from side pot
JAWRULE: shows [Ts As] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
carola66628 collected 2700 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4110 Main pot 2700. Side pot 1410. | Rake 0
Board [3s 4h Ad Kd 3c]
Seat 1: JAWRULE (small blind) showed [Ts As] and lost with two pair, Aces and Threes
Seat 2: Lion>Otter (big blind) showed [Jh Ac] and lost with two pair, Aces and Threes
Seat 3: Shankersbend folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: wionking folded on the Flop
Seat 7: biancaliz folded on the Flop
Seat 8: carola66628 showed [4d 4s] and won (4110) with a full house, Fours full of Threes
Seat 9: Fatcobra55 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Last edited by Lion>Otter; Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 08:10 AM..
 
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completed steps 1-3 - Fri Apr 26, 2013, 08:13 AM
(#5)
Lion>Otter's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 11
I believe I have completed the first three steps, unless I missed something with the poker basics course. I took and passed the quiz at the end so please let me know what is next thanks!
 
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Fri Apr 26, 2013, 08:28 AM
(#6)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,033
(Community Coordinator)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion>Otter View Post
I believe I have completed the first three steps, unless I missed something with the poker basics course. I took and passed the quiz at the end so please let me know what is next thanks!
Hello,

You will need to post your hand for review using the Hand Replayer only, this is an important step. (Please see above post for instructions)

Once you have posted your hand for review using the hand replayer we will analyse it for you and advise on the next step.

Cheers,

Raiser


Moderator

Bracelet Winner


 
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hand replayer example - Fri Apr 26, 2013, 10:11 AM
(#7)
Lion>Otter's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 11


I know this hand makes me look like a fish. But in play money games, I don't like raising pre-flop because it's very likely no one will fold then I've bloated a huge multiway pot with AJ. After the flop, I feel comfortable against the UTG short stack, but I know the two callers after should have me worried.
 
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Fri Apr 26, 2013, 10:45 AM
(#8)
HokyPokyToo's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,902
Thank you for posting this hand for review and I have asked one of the Hand Analysers to take a look at it for you.
He will do this within the next 24 hours and once it's been analysed I will advise on the next step.

Please complete the poker basics quiz. It is not coming up as passed yet.

Thanks,

Joss


2 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by HokyPokyToo; Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 11:01 AM..
 
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Fri Apr 26, 2013, 11:30 AM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Lion>Otter!

With AJ from the BB and 4 limpers, if I think that some of the opps could fold, then I will make a standard opening raise to 7BB (3BB+1BB for each limper). If the opps are all calling stations, then I'll check and see the flop, but I need to be willing to fold more often than normal due to the number of opps.

I flop top pair and the SB makes a pot-sized bet (value bet for 4 opps). Here's why I'd rather raise preflop. A raise preflop would cost me 210 chips, but waiting until now to raise is going to cost me 450, as I need to raise to 3X the previous bet. I do not want to raise less than this, especially with multiple opps, as they opps can be getting the correct odds to outdraw me, if I'm not beat already. A/rag hands like A3 or A4 should muck to the preflop riase... but if they see they hit 2 pair, they won't fold.

When I get 3-bet on the flop, I need to muck to this, as there are too many combinations and too many opponents that can beat me.

The key here is to raise when out of position preflop, then to muck to the flop raise. I also would NOT feel comfortable against the SB here, as they could easily have 2 pair or better and so could everyone else.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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re:AJ - Fri Apr 26, 2013, 01:47 PM
(#10)
Lion>Otter's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 11
John, I see all of you points in a tougher game; however, in this small play money stakes game, here is my response to your comments:

pre-flop: like you said, if you can expect to thin the field, than obviously a raise would be the best play here. However, at these "stakes", I would expect to fold out on average <1 of the four hands even with a raise as high as 160 (I have been playing these stakes the last few days. Sometimes 1 player will fold, very rarely 2 players will fold, often 0 will fold, and NEVER will you win the pot right there (I mean literally 0 times out of maybe 100 or more tries in similar spots)). So a raise here just seems to bloat the pot, which will borderline commit us if we hit the flop even against a large number of opponents.

OTF: Yes a pot-sized lead looks very strong, but again at these stakes, I promise I am ahead of his range (not to say that I am definitely winning but there are many more combinations of hands I beat then I am beat by). Combining this with his short stack size, I feel comfortable committing to his stack (not that I am in love with it). The reason I feel we are ahead is that we can at least somewhat discount AK and AQ from his range (many players limp with these hands at this level but especially AK still probably gets raised more than 50%). We can also discount 2 pair hands a tiny bit and especially sets, as players often slowplay at these stakes. And I'm not saying they should be slow playing or that they will always be slow playing, but they will be often enough to let us discount them at least slightly. When you combine this with people's love for playing any A preflop and playing a flopped A like the nuts on the flop, I think we are way ahead here. The problem is the players behind. Again, they usually won't have anything and can often call even raises with crappy 1 pair hands. The question than is whether I should have just called or raised bigger the UTG's bet (or perhaps I could fold right then? seems too nitty). After the raise comes back as a shove from UTG, if he were the last player in the hand, I would still call him counting on my read combined with the huge pot odds from his short stack. However, I guess you are right when we combine the two cold-callers sitting behind, I really need to fold here. But this is what is killing me about play-money games. It is encouraging me to play bad. OTOH, I also believe that rather than just write it off as "these players are horrible", I think it's always better to think through things and come up with the best counter strategies to these extremely exploitable mistakes being made. I suppose the correct strategy is just to tighten up and value-bet mercilessly when you hit big hands.
 
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Fri Apr 26, 2013, 05:45 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Lion>Otter!

Stake size really don't matter. These players are everywhere, from play money or freerolls, up to the biggest buy-in casino live games. I had one of them at my table last Friday in a $230 buy-in HPT tourney.
That's why I'll play these games just as seriously as I'll take a $1k buy-in. I'm sure I'll run into them in Vegas when I go there in June to play two WSOP events too.

In the second hand, I'm never discounting 2 pair here. As you say (and I totally agree), players will stay with any A or any suited cards, so every single Ax is well within their ranges. Also, the pot-sized lead bet by the SB is a huge problem.... it's the bet that prices out draws. Most lower thinking opps won't bet enough to do this or will overbet as a tell, but this opp bet the exact amount needed to maximize a gain and minimize a loss. Yes, it could be pure luck they hit it, but that don't happen often.

Tightening up and value betting the opps to death is exactly what needs to happen at PM or ANY of the microstakes tables... the same will hold true for 2NL, 5NL, etc. Trying to make fancy plays will only get US screwed up, instead of the opps.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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completed steps 1-3 - Sun Apr 28, 2013, 07:12 AM
(#12)
Lion>Otter's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 11
Thanks John that last comment was very helpful. It is easy to let the bonehead plays we see sometimes become excuses to play too loose or make -EV plays. I guess flatting the first bet and folding to any further significant action is probably the play.

I have completed steps 1-3 so please let me know what the next step is in the promotion, thanks!

cheers
-nick
 
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Sun Apr 28, 2013, 10:29 AM
(#13)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Nick!

I'm still going to raise here. Being out of position without the initiative in the hand is going to be a huge chip leak over time as competent players with position on me WILL be able to exploit it.

What they'll do (and I would if I had position on a passive player too) is that I'll bet/raise the flop and the opp that is OOP won't have a clue whether they're ahead or behind and will end up mucking the best hand a good % of the time.

When playing out of position, I want to have the lead and the initiative in the hand... without it, I'll lose too many chips. Passive play when OOP is one of the larger chip leaks that many players have.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Apr 28, 2013, 12:57 PM
(#14)
Lion>Otter's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 11


Another AJ hand in the blinds! I don't know if you are only supposed to comment on 1 hand for this promotion but I'm going to try again and see what happens. In this case, I have 4 limpers in front of me and I'm in the small blind. Again I have an awkward stack size. If I raise to 700 (3x + 4 limpers) and get only 1 caller, then I'll have an SPR of 1 (pot 1400 stack ~1400) and am pretty much committed. If i raise smaller, then I'm asking to build a big multi-way pot out of position with AJ. So instead I elect to shove here. There is a lot of limped money that would great to take down uncontested. And here I get two callers, which to me illustrates what is so difficult about playing in these play money games. One calls with 56s (and he wasn't shortstacked) while the other calls with a limped AK. I end up sucking out and winning the pot, but the question is what is the correct play here. Could it possibly be a fold?
 
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Sun Apr 28, 2013, 01:53 PM
(#15)
HokyPokyToo's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,902
Thank you for posting this hand for review and I have asked one of the Hand Analysers to take a look at it for you.
He will do this within the next 24 hours and once it's been analysed I will advise on the next step.

Cheers


2 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Apr 28, 2013, 01:56 PM
(#16)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Lion>Otter!

When a standard raise is 1/3 of my stack, then I really only have two choices and those are to shove or fold. 1/3 stack is the point where I'm pot-committed, so if I put that many chips in, I cannot fold.

Whether I shove or fold will be based on my reads of the opps. If they're playing loose, then my AJ is most likely ahead and will shove. If multiple of the opps are playing extremely tight, then I'll consider folding, BUT since they'll fold all of their hands that are not premiums (especially if they're raising their premium hands preflop) it's still going to be a +EV play to shove in most instances due to the high number of folds that I'll get.

The overwhelming majority of the time here, I'm open-shoving.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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44 3bet hand - Mon Apr 29, 2013, 09:35 AM
(#17)
Lion>Otter's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 11


I've started my bankroll builder at .01/.02 6max, wondering about this hand. Villain was super aggro (60/40 stats). Wondering about the 3bet pre, the check OTF and the shove OTT. Thanks!
 
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Mon Apr 29, 2013, 10:59 AM
(#18)
HokyPokyToo's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,902
Hi Lion>Otter,

Sorry that the next step was delayed, please play full ring only as instructed below. Playing other games can make you ineligible for future bonuses!

Step Two

Use your first buy-in to only play the 1/2 cent real money FULL RING tables on PokerStars. Do not play any other type of game other than this. Post one hand that you had difficulty with here in this thread using the hand replayer and we will analyze it for you.
Please watch the following video and answer the question below.



List 3 reasons why a player may want to make a big bet?

Then study the Cash Game Course and once your happy have a go at attempting the quiz. Don't rush through the course, there's a lot of content there and the quiz is tricky so spend some time on this.

So you have 3 things to do to earn your next bonus.

1) Play the 1/2 cent Real Money tables and post an interesting hand here in the Forum using the Hand Replayer.
2) Watch the Bet Sizing video and answer the question below it.
3) Study and pass the Cash Game quiz.

Let us know as soon as you have all 3 tasks complete and we will award you with your next buy-in.

Best of Luck!


2 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by HokyPokyToo; Thu May 09, 2013 at 09:32 AM..
 
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Mon Apr 29, 2013, 05:00 PM
(#19)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion>Otter View Post


I've started my bankroll builder at .01/.02 6max, wondering about this hand. Villain was super aggro (60/40 stats). Wondering about the 3bet pre, the check OTF and the shove OTT. Thanks!
Hi Lion>Otter!

You will see plenty of agro maniacs like this at 2NL. However, I think you went about this hand the wrong way. Agro maniacs tend not to fold, especially preflop. With pocket 4s, you will flop a set 1 in 8 times on average. The other 7 times you will miss and typically have two or three overcards on the board making it very difficult for you to play post flop. Don't bloat the pot in spots where you are likely to lose! I recommend calling preflop here. Then when you flop a strong hand, like a set, bet/raise every chance you get.

As played, if you are going to 3-bet, make it 3x the original raise. You raise was a bit big.

Now, you get a great flop. Don't waste it!I suggest lead with a 50% pot bet here. The best way to win a big pot with your strong hands is to bet/raise as early and often as possible. Getting fancy with slowplaying just reduces the chance that you will get maximum value out of the situation.

So, don't raise agro maniacs preflop unless you have a very strong hand like JJ+ because they won't fold. You want to raise for value in spots where you want them to continue. The same is true on the flop. Now that you have a strong hand, bet every chance you can and take the villain to valuetown!

Finally, please stick to 9 man full ring tables! If you don't you will probably become ineligable for future buy ins through the bankroll builder promo.

GL and have fun at the tables!

Roland GTX
 
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33 full ring game - Tue Apr 30, 2013, 07:56 AM
(#20)
Lion>Otter's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 11


This hand just happened in my .01/.02 full ring game for bankroll builder. It definitely isn't a standard line so I thought I'd see what the hand reader thought. Villain is a wet noodle preflop and then a bit aggro postflop (stats: 61/11/3.9). When he limped, I decided to raise with my 33 to isolate this terrible player rather than my default limp behind to setmine. Is this too early position to try a move like this? It does risk having someone behind wake up with a big hand.

Postflop, he led out to me on a dry board, I decided to float thinking he was bluffing or perhaps had a 5 which could be bluffed off later in the hand. The turn brought a super-weird min bet that was about 1/20th the size of the pot. It is feeling even more like he has a 5, so I float again. The river brings 2 pairs, which counterfits my 3s but also counterfits if he has a 5. He checks, I bet 3/4 pot, and he instamucks. I think the river bet is correct, but I'm just wondering if you thing the entire line is too risky.

Last edited by Lion>Otter; Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:04 AM..
 

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