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Sngs - Sat Apr 27, 2013, 07:34 AM
(#1)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Is anyone actually making any money in sngs single tables, i don't think there's enough money to win.

its like a 12 man 1 50 you get payed in 1st 2nd and 3rd but you only double up in 3rd and triple up in 2nd, it seems like an easy way to lose your money to me, what i think would be worth playing is the top half of the field doubles up, so the top 6 out of 12 get payed.

What do you guys think?
 
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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:23 AM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
I think a lot of players dismiss single table tourneys, because they can last just almost as long as an MTT (in fact, they can be slower than the 360-man turbos), but don't offer the same reward.
However, they offer a lower variance way to steady profits.

The tourney type you descibe is "Double or Nothing" (DoN). Stars used to run those, but now it has 50/50s with a slightly different structure.
I'm playing $1.50 10-player 50/50s at the moment and I'm finding them very soft (I've been ITM 70% of the time!). My volume is tiny so far, but you can beat them with the same sort of strategy that is required in the OSL. i.e. You barely play a hand, rarely go all in (unless desperate) and just wait for 5 fish to go busto. In one game, I cashed in 4th place when I only played 1 hand!

You can find the 50/50s under the SnG STT tab in the Stars client. Each one takes about 50 minutes, because the game finishes as soon as 5 players are out, and the money you win is based on your stack size. You only need 375 chips when the tourney ends to break even, and if you're still close to your starting stack, you'll make about a dollar of profit.
The survivlist strategy is somewhat different to normal STTs and MTTs and this is partly what makes the games relatively easy to beat. e.g. yesterday, I was short-stacked on 7bb in 5/7 (close to the bubble) with a nit to my left on 2.5bb. It made no sense for me to play anything but a monster hand when the nit was likely to go busto when the blinds came round, but some fish at the table failed to recognise the situation. There was suddenly a 3-way all in between AT, KK and JJ. The guys with AT and JJ had the easiest folds in the world, but they called and lost their 10bb stacks, so the nit on 2.5bb cashed in 5th and I got 4th.
If you play the 50/50s, be conscious of stack sizes and also your position on the leaderboard. If you're in last place then you'll have to gamble it up, but if you're 3/6, there's no need to be active. You only need one of the 3 shorter players to bust for you to double your money.


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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:34 AM
(#3)
HoaryGill's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 51
As you know, I like the 50-50s too, though I prefer the turbos - they just move things along a little quicker.

This one took 36 minutes. And of course I'm using my C-3 strategy, because you're right, Arty, it does work quite well in the 50-50 games.

Just let the clowns do most of the work for you and then mop up in the end...

thus:



turned a buck and a half into 5.26 in no time flat - like magic!

;?)

Last edited by HoaryGill; Sat Apr 27, 2013 at 11:36 AM..
 
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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:32 PM
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mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Hoary you got lucky there lol, Arty there's no way am i playing those 50s i just came 2nd with a 70c profit after dominating the whole game with a stack of 4k to there 2k at best.

It was full of really tight players and you could guess what happened my chips got ate by blinds and it turned into bingo where i ended up calling my last 800 chips with A4s and sucked out to AJ and coming 2nd

I played 2 holdem $1.50 sngs and lost one with AKs where i went all in on the button and got called by a donkey with 910s who flopped a flush, he risked his whole stack with 9 10s.

Then i won one in 2nd so im down by 80c, so i went in a $1.50 omaha game and this was less stressfull lol because people play so many hands you can sit back and relax though my k high flush got busted by an ace high flush he rivered because 4 diamonds went out on the river.

Overall i don't like these sngs its to high a risk for little gain even if i came 2nd twice and lost one i would be 10c down, that's ridiculous.

Im sure if i could find 50s with maniacs in a 70c profit would be real nice because i could just run 4 and basically watch but when your vs 9 nits its just not worth it it especially when your 4k stack gets smashed by the blinds even though i stole a fair few and then i had o suck out to win, if my a4s lost there i think i would of raged at the fact i battered the table to begin with.

Im gonna play some omaha though should be easy enough
 
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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:38 PM
(#5)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Actually looking at that hand again how did you find afield as easy as that
 
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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 12:49 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
It was full of really tight players and you could guess what happened my chips got ate by blinds and it turned into bingo where i ended up calling my last 800 chips with A4s and sucked out to AJ and coming 2nd
There are usually 2 or 3 loose players in the 50/50s, but if there's a bunch of nits, you just alter your strategy. They will be blinding down too, you know, so you can make more steals by minraising in the cutoff and otb. Eventually someone's going to have to gamble. If you've got a larger stack, then they can't bust you.
It's really nothing like bingo. It's all about being solid in the push-fold game. In normal SnGs, I'm shoving 10bb with hands like T9s, but in the 50s, I'm rarely shoving, because there's just as much fold equity when I minraise. If you have a solid push-fold game, you can crush the typical $1.50 players, because they tend to be way too loose or way too tight. If you're bang in the middle, you exploit everyone.
If you prefer a more aggressive game, then the Knockout SnGs might suit you. They seem to attract looser players, who overvalue both their hands and the bounties. You can make a solid profit in those games with the typical SnG strategy recommended by Spacegravy. You'll pick up a couple of bounties as a side-effect of going deep, and will often win $5 for an hour's "work".

I think it's good to "shop around" and find which games suit your style best. Always check out the structure of the games too. I can't stand turbos (too much luck => too much variance) but I'm happy to pick up 30c or so for each 50/50 that I play.


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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:53 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I don't mind if i made 30c for every sng i played its just if you lose one you can kiss that small profit good bye, i don't mind if there's 3 nits on the table but to many is a definite no no same as i wouldn't want to be on a table full of lags that's worse.

I like a nice steady pace where i can get a thew good hands to pay off.

Im playing omaha at the minute you can easily make more in here than holdem every pot gets bloated, trouble is i flopped top set and villain goes all in with with two pair and rivers a full house.
 
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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 02:55 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Ok ive come to the conclusion that omaha is to be avoided like the plague im a dollar up but unless you have the nuts your either winning big or losing big for example



Then you get a nice hand like this

 
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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 03:02 PM
(#9)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
The Answer is yes you can make money at them.

BUT..the money you make is as you note lower than binking a large field MTT. With the STT's (single table SnG's you need to look at the Profit / loss over a 500- 1000 range of Games. The same is true of MTT's then you can look and see what is the comparison of money won per game for the STT verses MTT's

Grade b


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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 03:18 PM
(#10)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I could probably make more money on 2c turbos
 
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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 04:01 PM
(#11)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
I thought you wanted to find a game with low variance. 50/50s and NLH cash games have low variance. MTTs, turbos and Omaha have crazy variance. It's great when you bink a big score, but brutal when you can't win a thing for days.
The great thing about the 50/50s is that you only have to be better than half the field to make money. In cash or MTTs, you need to beat 70% of them at least.


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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 04:43 PM
(#12)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
yh i do but i wont be playing any turbos was just saying i could prob get more money back on my 2c than 1 50 in a 50 50 sng, i probably could turn over a profit in those 50 50 it just seems to high risk to me now if it was a double or nothing id definitely be playing that because it would be worth risking a $1.50 to double up.

I tried heads up because that's like a double or nothing but im no good at playing 60% of hands i would practice HU more but $1.50 is to much to practice with

Il play say 4 more of those 50s, see how it goes, those knock outs though i cant be playing those you need 3rd place just to make 40c that's ridiculous lol, its brilliant if you get 1st but i know i wont be getting 1st very often if i had a bigger bankroll id play 10 of each and see what my profits look like but i aint blowing a 3rd of my roll to experiment with them il just have to build my roll and see how it goes another day.
 
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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 07:47 PM
(#13)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Is anyone actually making any money in sngs single tables, i don't think there's enough money to win.
I was just playing a couple of $1.50 50/50s. There was one player on both my tables with decent stats, so I looked him up. He's grinding these games very profitably.
Playing 50 games a day, he's up $1800 in 4 months. I wish I could earn that much playing 2NL!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
I don't mind if i made 30c for every sng i played its just if you lose one you can kiss that small profit good bye
The reg whose graph I posted is making exactly 30c per game. I'm surprised he hasn't upped the stakes, but if he's crushing the $1.50s while multitabling, who am I to tell him to change a wining formula?

The other day I came across a reg who'd played something like 24,000 of these so far this year. I get RSI just thinking about all that mouse-clicking.


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Sun Apr 28, 2013, 07:11 AM
(#14)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Clearly it is possible to make a profit by looking at those graphs but its still to high risk for me on my roll at the minute i earnt $11 yesterday and $10 friday by running only 2 tables at a time, but ive lost like $15 messing around in sngs and HU.

So im gonna build about $150 bankroll and then il have ago but to be honest i think i could make a fair bit out of 5nl which il be going on when i earn another $50 so were have to see.
 

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