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5NL - 185bb 2pair in 3bet pot

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5NL - 185bb 2pair in 3bet pot - Sun Apr 28, 2013, 10:59 AM
(#1)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hey guys,

So I raise my BTN with AQo to my standard 2.2 x and got squeezed from the BB. Both players are unknowns.

I decide to call.
We flop top two on a pretty nasty flop and we face a well sizable cbet; I decided to raise for value against hands like AK/AT and other spades. But the problem was I did not put a plan to when we get re-raised. And that's exactly what happens. We are getting slightly less than 2:1 on our call. Would you call or fold?

I think my turn raise is problematic especially with the sizing that I took because it commits me. And we are building a big pot vs an unknown in a 3bet pot with 185bb effective.

 
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Sun Apr 28, 2013, 11:02 AM
(#2)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
"I decided to raise for value against hands like AK/AT and other spades"
Also, I'm worried by just flatting we could be giving the SB odds to draw out on us.
 
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Sun Apr 28, 2013, 11:55 AM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
what did he have?
 
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Sun Apr 28, 2013, 12:39 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
what did he have?
That's the wrong question to ask. The correct question - which I was going to pose to geo - is "What range do you put villain on, and have you stoved your equity against that range?"

I'll add that even after creating a range and putting it into Equilab, I'm a bt stumped about the best play here. The stack to pot ratio on the flop is pretty hideous at 8:1 before the money goes in.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:58 PM
(#5)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Doubt he raised k10 pre flop so i would say he had a set at best, and i dunno about other players but i wouldn't be shoving all in with any draws either.

Thats a tricky situation i dont think ive found myself in yet and wouldnt like to be either, i don't know if it was the right move to raise that 2 pair or call to see the turn what do yo think?

Last edited by mike2198; Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 03:05 PM..
 
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Mon Apr 29, 2013, 05:31 AM
(#6)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey Geo

There is no folding here, now. We have a very strong hand in this situation. While there are reasons its not as strong as we might hope (deep stacks, three-way), we are still playing a three-bet pot on the button v a squeeze from the blinds with top two.

So I do not mind raising at all. Once we raise we must call if they shove, for we stack AK/AJ/ATss/AXss and lose v QQ/JJ and occasionally AA or KT. But we have outs in a lot of cases.

The easiest question to answer is, should I have called the flop three-bet shove. The answer is yes!

The harder question is, should you have raised the flop in the first place? I am inclined to say no.

One good thing about not raising the flop is our call does not cap the action, meaning the small blind can still reopen it. We are much more likely to stack the BB's AK combinations here if the SB raises the bet and the call as the BB will rate their hand best against our calling range (whereas they might just call our flop raise with AK).

So in that way we keep both player's putting money ranges in wide, the SB and BB both, to our benefit. Remember the board is scary, but we have a strong hand, and position. So if a scary spade, K, or T comes off, we are neither a) obliged to put money in on it or b) obliged to act before we see whether SB/BB are willing to put money in on it.

That means sometimes we'll fold to a huge BB bet on a T turn. Oh well. By keeping ranges wide we can often value shove turn over the BB's double barrel and stack those AJ/AK/QJ hands, with JJ being the only hand in his range that gets us with a substantial frequency. That's going to happen, we aren't going to win this pot every time.

I think the biggest +EV benefit is keeping the SB in with KQ/AT/JT type hands. Just a huge benefit to us since we hardly ever pay these hands off if they pass us and we crush them otherwise
 
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Mon Apr 29, 2013, 06:48 AM
(#7)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
@ArtySmokesPS, It's pretty hard to range our opponents sqz as he is unknown; pretty much you have a few different ranges depending on how our opponent plays (in which case we have no clue) containing some premiums ofcourse, Axs, Kxs. I think hands like KQ/KJ, QJs, PP, AJ would just call. So it's either a polarized range if our opponent is any good or just premiums if our opponent is a recreational player.

@GarethC23, "should I have called the flop three-bet shove. The answer is yes!"
"I think the biggest +EV benefit is keeping the SB in with KQ/AT/JT type hands." would you not worry about giving the SB the right odds to call to draw out on us? Should we not be raising for protection also?

@mike2198, I called and he had JJ
 

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