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5NL Zoom - QQ - SBvBB

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5NL Zoom - QQ - SBvBB - Tue Apr 30, 2013, 07:46 AM
(#1)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
The BB here is a tight player 10/5 over 132 hands.



I'm dealt QQ and it is folded round to me, I elect to bet of course and am 3bet by the big-blind, I dont really want to call and set-mine with the QQ so elect to then 4bet. Which the SB calls. That throws me a bit off-guard as I was expecting either a 5bet all-in or a fold. So I took AA/KK out of his likely range but though some manner of high suited ace was likely including AK/AQ.

Flop brings the A again. Which given the action does concern me but as I have a legitimate hand I want to cbet as he could still easily have a worse hand. He calls.

I now check the turn, I dont like this, I think I should have bet again as if he thought I was messing around with some BvB play pre and on the flop then he could fold at this stage. I also give him a free card to improve whatever holding he had and to be totally honest I didnt have a clue what hand he had here other than thinking he could have an ace. He checks behind though and we see the river.

The river is a second three which appears pretty innocuous but I am still unsure where I am in the hand at this stage. I check and he checks behind again.

I'm asking again here - should I be continuing the aggression on the turn given I hold a premium hand but be prepared to fold to a shove?

As he checked behind on the turn, should I be betting the river as I am now likely to be ahead or should I take the showdown value my hand has?

I feel like I lost value again.
 
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Tue Apr 30, 2013, 08:57 AM
(#2)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
I might c/c this flop here. When he flats the 4bet I think he will have AK/JJ/TT most of the time; even AK might just ship it so I'm more leaned to JJ/TT; By betting flop we might lose value from JJ/TT and get called or shipped on with AK; So c/c flop and go to SD. You can also put a very small bet on the river if the turn was checked back. OR bet small OTT if the flop was checked back.

I don't think we can get more than 1 street of value here since its a 4bet pot.
 
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Tue Apr 30, 2013, 12:52 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi bhoy,

I like betting the flop over checking, as checking pretty much turns our hand face up and we can not check/call to showdown with a stack to pot ratio of 2... if he bets half the pot and we call, there'll be $4 in the middle and only $3 left to bet.

I would shut it down too after being called on the flop, it can get tricky if villain is capable of turning JJ/TT into a bluff to try and move us off QQ or KK, but he doesn't seem like that type playing 10/5. So I think check and fold to a big bet is prudent here. I don't think you lost any value tbh as I doubt he calls again without an ace.


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Tue Apr 30, 2013, 03:31 PM
(#4)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Dave, wouldn't betting flop help our opponent make the right decision by folding JJ/TT?
 
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Tue Apr 30, 2013, 11:16 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
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Maybe, maybe not, people seem to lose their minds blind v blind. But I think it's better than checking without a clear plan for commitment, letting him bet JJ (which he might think is good if we check) or take us to town with a big ace, forcing us to possibly make a large mistake.

Edit: Obviously betting won't help him make a correct decision all the time at least, since we did get called by worse here I just noticed


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 11:18 PM..
 
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Wed May 01, 2013, 01:57 PM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Dave,

How's this hand different than this: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...high-flop-Zoom.
Why do you agree on checking back with KK on AJx and not with QQ on Axx?
Is it because its a 4bet pot and not a SRP? Because we are OOP? Because we are BvB?

What are the considerations that you would take when deciding to bet or not to bet with an underpair?
 
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Wed May 01, 2013, 02:03 PM
(#7)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Hi Dave,

How's this hand different than this: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...high-flop-Zoom.
Why do you agree on checking back with KK on AJx and not with QQ on Axx?
Is it because its a 4bet pot and not a SRP? Because we are OOP? Because we are BvB?

What are the considerations that you would take when deciding to bet or not to bet with an underpair?
I was going to ask this question when I got home but having you asking it already makes it easier to just quote.

I'm labouring under the assumption that it is because of the 4bet but interested to see if there are other considerations.
 
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Wed May 01, 2013, 06:00 PM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
Being in position is the main reason for me to check behind with KK/QQ on Axx, but the SPR also factors in. I'd usually lead out when first to act because of the reasons Dave provided above: "checking pretty much turns our hand face up and we can not check/call to showdown with a stack to pot ratio of 2"

Against passive players that can't hand-read and won't ever bluff, I might even check OOP with KK on Axx. They might be able to work out that I don't have an ace, but many seem incapable of making the next logical step of working out why I'm betting blank turns and rivers. At 2NL at least, I've been looked up very light if I check an Axx flop and then bet the turn and river with KK/QQ.

Note that with smaller pairs that have almost no SDV, I'd c-bet whether in position or not. With those, I'm not looking to get to showdown. I want to scoop up 100% of the pot before more overcards come.


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Wed May 01, 2013, 06:00 PM
(#9)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
Being in position is the main reason for me to check behind with KK/QQ on Axx, but the SPR also factors in. I'd usually lead out when first to act because of the reasons Dave provided above: "checking pretty much turns our hand face up and we can not check/call to showdown with a stack to pot ratio of 2"

Against passive players that can't hand-read and won't ever bluff, I might even check OOP with KK on Axx. They might be able to work out that I don't have an ace, but many seem incapable of making the next logical step of working out why I'm betting blank turns and rivers. At 2NL at least, I've been looked up very light if I check an Axx flop and then bet the turn and river with KK/QQ.

Note that with smaller pairs that have almost no SDV, I'd c-bet whether in position or not. With those, I'm not looking to get to showdown. I want to scoop up 100% of the pot before more overcards come.


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Thu May 02, 2013, 04:25 AM
(#10)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Thanks for the clarification Arty!
 
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Thu May 02, 2013, 10:39 AM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Great question!

Arty's right. The big differences are are position and pot size. In this hand the pot is largely inflated by going 4-bets pre. We can't check being out of position and have any reasonable expectation to get our hand to showdown if it's good without playing for the rest of the stacks.

In the KK hand the pot is much smaller being a single raised pot, and we are in position so checking behind eliminates a betting round as well. We can induce bluffs and lighter call downs etc and get our hand to showdown without playing for stacks pretty easily checking back the flop.


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Thu May 02, 2013, 12:27 PM
(#12)
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Since: Oct 2010
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