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10NL - Flop x/r option vs Cbet line

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10NL - Flop x/r option vs Cbet line - Tue Apr 30, 2013, 05:32 PM
(#1)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hello Trainers, ( and anyone who might have input on this )

I'm putting this hand in as a theory question when we are OOP as the PFR

We know what are good boards to cbet ex. Q27r
So a balanced line would be to cbet this as a bluff and cbet this for value with a Qx hand, etc.

We also know what are bad boards to cbet ex. QT8ss
So if we only cbet this flop for value and protection, we are basically playing our hand face up.

So the question is: Would you consider balancing your flop line between: cbet-ing, x/f-ing, x/c-ing, and x/r-ing

If not, then why?
If yes, with what kind of hands would you consider different scenarios? and against what type of opponents?

Here's an example:



Would you cbet this flop as a semi-bluff vs unknown? What cards other than hearts would you consider 2barelling on the turn if called?

Would we x/c to balance our flop checks as PFR OOP? or x/r with the intention of getting it in OTF with the NFD? and what turns would you consider 2barelling if called?
 
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Wed May 01, 2013, 11:28 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi geo,

I do like to balance vs regs with history, but don't worry about it mostly as it's usually not that situation. I think I'm often doing enough unbalanced stuff to exploit weak players that it doesn't matter much.

In this hand I would always c-bet as a semi-bluff with good hand equity, and often be playing a bet/3b line which looks really strong so we can get folds from players holding stuff as strong as QJ if they have a fold button, and good hand equity to fall back on when they don't fold. Our equity is really only poor vs. a set, and we can sometimes get it in vs. a dominated draw. Particularly a combo draw like KhJh which in the hands of a good player or an aggro one is generally going to be ripping it in vs. a bet/3b line and we are actually almost a 2-1 fav over that hand so we can get it in really good, and winning 20bb pots with ace high when the board bricks out is always fun.

I don't like check-raising this spot because it looks like you don't have a made hand... all strong hands even QQ, you'd not check and risk a free card + lost value on a wet board. When ever I see someone check-raise this type of situation they always seem to turn over a draw or AK. Just c-bet imo, it makes you much harder to play against by keeping your range as wide as possible.


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Wed May 01, 2013, 01:15 PM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I'm also c-betting this board with the NFD, but...
Quote:
What cards other than hearts would you consider 2barelling on the turn if called?
...is where I have trouble. My barrelling frequency is much too low. I'm really not sure which cards are good to bet when we're OOP with ace high after being called on this flop. Against nitty players that tend to call in the BB with small pairs and float the flop to see if you're one-and-done, I guess that just about anything except total bricks will scare them.


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Wed May 01, 2013, 02:12 PM
(#4)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
So we bet flop and get called, obviously we can bet an A on the turn and a heart. Would a K even be a good card to 2barell? Are we ever betting a Q? how about a brick?

And then in the cases we don't bet turn, we will have to c/f turn to a sizable bet?

What I'm thinking is with this kind of hand we want to see turn and river to capitalize on our equity or is this a type of hand that we would like to capitalize on fold equity more often than our real equity which we can fall back on if called?

What sort of situations would you consider a different line, x/c, x/r when you are OOP as PFR?
 
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Wed May 01, 2013, 02:59 PM
(#5)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
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I don't like check-raising on the flop here. I feel like most of the time in the micros when villain bets in this situation he has something. Middle/top pair, draw, etc. If they had complete air/small pair they are checking behind a good deal of the time. So we can expect villain to not fold often to a check-raise.

Also, the way I look at it geo, you are able to capitalize on your equity by playing the flop hard, not 'seeing the turn and river'. You want to be putting the money into the pot while your equity is at its highest, not later when it sharply drops on a blank turn/river. All that said, I'm not totally sure how to deal with a blank turn. Your equity plummets, but I still think 2-barreling usually is a good plan. This is largely due to being out of position in my opinion. You can't expect to see a free river if you check. So just keep the aggression up on a blank turn and push that fold equity. Unless you are re-raised on the turn you get to set the price and still have some outs on the river. Taking this line, your decision on the river would mostly come down to how certain you are villain was on a draw. If you really think villain was on a draw and missed you may need to fire that rare third barrel. Even though your missed A-high draw might beat their missed draw, they have the option to bluff you if you check. Otherwise I would just give up as putting a large bet in with little to no equity against an opponent that likely has something just doesn't make much sense.
 
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Wed May 01, 2013, 03:08 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
On the turn, it depends a lot on the opponent, and to an extent the depth of money. I might barrel, check-call, or in good spots check-shove is a really nice play as it looks super strong and solid villain isn't likely to call with a made hand less than a boat, but depending on the size of the shove may feel priced in to call with draws vs. what he perceives as KK/AA, and actually be crushed by our dominating draw.


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Wed May 01, 2013 at 03:10 PM..
 
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Thu May 02, 2013, 02:15 PM
(#7)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Hi Geo!

From my experience at 5NL and 10NL regulars almost always tend to put you on a draw when you check raise this kind of board. For this reason I stopped doing that completely and will only sometimes try it with a hand like AQ against a villain I am 90% sure he is going to bet b vs b once checked into. I do not think this is a bad play with a set either because most regulars would bet a FD if you check this board so in case they decide to check it back it is safe to assume that another heart would not be a scare card for you (but you would obviously be missing value from a hand like JT which will probably check it back). Occasionally you can even induce a bad regular to pay you off 3 streets with something as bad as a middle or bottom pair when the FD missed and that is about the only reason why I sometimes use the check raise line on a wet board.

Last edited by TommyGun369; Thu May 02, 2013 at 02:25 PM..
 
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Fri May 03, 2013, 03:28 AM
(#8)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hey guys, I did think this through a little further.
I think our cbetting line is already balanced on wet boards since we will be betting our overpairs and sets. So betting our semi-bluffs balances our cbets as well.

As for our flop checks, well to balance with our c/f we need to do some c/c's or c/r's (I figure Tommy has options for a c/r; personally I'm not too fond of a c/r as PFR) but I would consider a c/c line with A9s on A73r (basically with hands that I cannot get 3 streets of value from and with board texture that do not give chances for our opponent to improve.

I'm not too worried about balancing or being exploited too much on the micros, but just throwing some thoughts around and thinking outside of the box.
 

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