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Should i defend my Big bllind on the bubble of a 50Fifty

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Should i defend my Big bllind on the bubble of a 50Fifty - Sun May 05, 2013, 04:58 PM
(#1)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604


This was from a 50fifty ($1.50)

This was one of the longer games I have played in.

Seat 1 was playing LAP although he did have a raising raise playing about 38/10. He had a button steal % of only 25%

shorty seat 2 is a reg in these games plays well has a good bubble play plays a tight TAG style.

other shorty is a nit playing only 5/4.

If the blinds were lower I would let this go no problem, but with the blinds getting up there and no real sign the shorties are going anywhere soon, should I be switching up my game.

call well that I don't like
raise only have 11bb so don't like that so shove or fold?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

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Sun May 05, 2013, 05:45 PM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,347
These are the games I'm currently playing, and I am never shoving here and always folding to the steal, because of the stack sizes of other players.

These 50/50s are all about survival. You should never put your whole stack at risk unless you are the shortest stack of all and you believe that the players to your left will not call, or you're a medium stack and have QQ+/AKs and expect worse hands to call. (In the second case, I'd go with a minraise, actually, because minraises in these games seem to have just as much fold equity as shoves, but give you room to manouvre if you see a flop and get action).

Villain 2 may be a winning player, but he has less than 4bb remaining, and there are antes in play. The ubernit on the other side of the table has about 5bb. You're in 2nd place. One of the shorties is bound to go bust before you do. You have no reason to play a hand at this point. There's no bounty for knocking anyone out, and you make money if you have anything more than 375 chips when the game ends.

I've been getting a decent ROI by letting other players knock each other out. It is amazing how clueless some of them are. I've seen ubernits clinging on to three quarters of a blind, while a fish and a LAG stack off 20bb deep with JJ and AK on the bubble. There have been several of these games where I thought I was as good as out, sitting in 7th of 7 with 4bb, and then there's suddenly a double knockout that puts me in the money.

Most of your opponents in the $1.50 fifties are not at all aware of the stack sizes of everyone else. They just look at their own hand and stack and think "I have A9 and a shortish stack. All in!". You'll make money in these games, by avoiding confrontations, not looking for them.

In short, it's not important to resteal or try and double up when you're safely in the top 3. Just like in league games, it's best to time-bank fold and let the fish bust each other.


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Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Sun May 05, 2013 at 05:47 PM..
 
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Sun May 05, 2013, 06:09 PM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I would like to play these games profitably, i think i played like 5 now and won one, i always seem to get a table full of nits and as couple of regs raising it up pre and i find myself in a situation where i call amin raise on the button with KQ QJ JT the sort of hands that are playable but you dont want to raise again and i miss the flop and end up folding.

So i lose like a 3rd of my stack like this and i end up folding till i pick up a sweet position to shove AK i end up back at starting stack size then i get peeled again, its the same in the open league but its easier to double up because fish get all in with A2o lol

I really am struggling with those 50s i dont really want to put anymore money in them now though
 
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Sun May 05, 2013, 07:56 PM
(#4)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
ty Arty,

Solid advice that I'm sure I once knew and again have gotten away from. On the positive side after reading your advice I have cashed in 3 in a row,

Tight is Might

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun May 05, 2013, 08:06 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
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Hey Grade b!

The key with a situation like this is that in this type of tourney, each chip is worth money at the end of the tourney. Due to this, I do not want to take chances defending blinds... which can easily cost me money at the end of the tourney.

John (JWK24)


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Sun May 05, 2013, 08:17 PM
(#6)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Thanks JWK,

This is a fairly new format for me, so still getting used to it.

I tend to play tight but have had a few spots on the bubble that I have been unsure of.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun May 05, 2013, 10:49 PM
(#7)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post


This was from a 50fifty ($1.50)

This was one of the longer games I have played in.

Seat 1 was playing LAP although he did have a raising raise playing about 38/10. He had a button steal % of only 25%

shorty seat 2 is a reg in these games plays well has a good bubble play plays a tight TAG style.

other shorty is a nit playing only 5/4.

If the blinds were lower I would let this go no problem, but with the blinds getting up there and no real sign the shorties are going anywhere soon, should I be switching up my game.

call well that I don't like
raise only have 11bb so don't like that so shove or fold?

Grade b
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
These are the games I'm currently playing, and I am never shoving here and always folding to the steal, because of the stack sizes of other players.

These 50/50s are all about survival. You should never put your whole stack at risk unless you are the shortest stack of all and you believe that the players to your left will not call, or you're a medium stack and have QQ+/AKs and expect worse hands to call. (In the second case, I'd go with a minraise, actually, because minraises in these games seem to have just as much fold equity as shoves, but give you room to manouvre if you see a flop and get action).

Villain 2 may be a winning player, but he has less than 4bb remaining, and there are antes in play. The ubernit on the other side of the table has about 5bb. You're in 2nd place. One of the shorties is bound to go bust before you do. You have no reason to play a hand at this point. There's no bounty for knocking anyone out, and you make money if you have anything more than 375 chips when the game ends.

I've been getting a decent ROI by letting other players knock each other out. It is amazing how clueless some of them are. I've seen ubernits clinging on to three quarters of a blind, while a fish and a LAG stack off 20bb deep with JJ and AK on the bubble. There have been several of these games where I thought I was as good as out, sitting in 7th of 7 with 4bb, and then there's suddenly a double knockout that puts me in the money.

Most of your opponents in the $1.50 fifties are not at all aware of the stack sizes of everyone else. They just look at their own hand and stack and think "I have A9 and a shortish stack. All in!". You'll make money in these games, by avoiding confrontations, not looking for them.

In short, it's not important to resteal or try and double up when you're safely in the top 3. Just like in league games, it's best to time-bank fold and let the fish bust each other.

The last 2 months before Black Friday fell I played about 250 of these (the buy-in was actually $1.10 then,but same game,same structure,same bevy of clueless droolers...)and ran about 72% ITM and a +16% ROI,which would translate to about a 25 cent profit per game in the $1.50's.

That's the reality B and mike2198. You want to make anything even resembling a decent amount of money in these you'll have to grind a big number of them profitably. Same as for ANY sit-n-go. Don't kid yourself that it will be anything different or you're half-licked by over expectations going in. B I think you already understand this well enough.

That said,every game has it's rhythms and keys to success,or at least a chance at success. Arty and JWK are right about these---first rule is Survival. All other rules are see FIRST RULE.

B in a hand like this,the stack sizes are everything. You have second place here,and if you pass on playing the SB and no one leapfrogs you,you'll STILL have second place,the blinds will be off of you and coming at the shorties. A lot of things would have to go wrong for you to not cash in this game. Playing a weak hand like Q9s is a good way to get that train of woe on the tracks and pulling out of the station. Easy,easy fold here. You really have to have a very good reason for risking giving up chips and more importantly placement at the bubble in these.

Arty had posted in another thread on these 50/50's that he was running around 70% ITM. As I said I ran a tick north of that over 250-odd games. My plan was going to be to play at least 1500 of them before even entertaining the thought of moving up. And I had reasonable minimum goals I had to hit before I would allow that move. I have news for you---when eff and Trap and the gang were running the T.I.C. 50/50's were the game of choice for the most part and Lango guesstimated early on that a 70% ITM would be essential to turning any kind of profit in these games. The basic structure demands that. As usual Lang's "guesses" are better than most people's.

Making the money in these is all. You have to do that. There will be opportunities a plenty to come along where you can be in a great spot to make the money,have a nice stack and be able to attack players with near impunity at the 6-7 player bubble. This was NOT the spot to do so,not by relative stack sizes,nor player types in relation to where they were sitting in relation to you (having a nice stack and 2 middle stack Nit's on your left in these = steal like a 3 sheets to the wind Barclay's banker...).
 
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Sun May 05, 2013, 11:00 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
I would like to play these games profitably, i think i played like 5 now and won one, i always seem to get a table full of nits and as couple of regs raising it up pre and i find myself in a situation where i call amin raise on the button with KQ QJ JT the sort of hands that are playable but you dont want to raise again and i miss the flop and end up folding.

So i lose like a 3rd of my stack like this and i end up folding till i pick up a sweet position to shove AK i end up back at starting stack size then i get peeled again, its the same in the open league but its easier to double up because fish get all in with A2o lol

I really am struggling with those 50s i dont really want to put anymore money in them now though

Because of the basic goal structure of these games and the extra kicker that the chips actually have a real monetary value to them for the 5 players who make the money,you do NOT want to be mixing it up early with already opened pots and you're holding hands like 2 broadways or mid and small pairs. Too leaky a strategy. I have nothing against small-ball poker and a more LAG approach in games that it fits to play that way. The 50/50 structure is pretty much the polar opposite of the kind of structure you want to be playing that style.

NOW,if you reach the bubble then you can find good stealing spots many times in these. A competent player in these WILL be allowing big stacks to abuse them pretty much at will if they have a middle-sized stack in relation to the field and there's a short stack or 2 on the table. Simply because in these games that's actually the smart play. Make the shorties try and get home instead of making a mistake. If you're giving away chips early you're either going to be the shortie that everyone is waiting out or one of the smaller mid-stacks who the regs are punishing with near impunity. Conserve ships at every opportunity,get max value for the hands when you do have the goods. No in between. Every chip leaked in these matters.
 
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Mon May 06, 2013, 09:47 AM
(#9)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
ty Moxie,

I know that you'd need to grind A lot of these to make a profit, of course first of all I need to adjust my game to the point where I am making correct descions for tis game type.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon May 06, 2013, 04:36 PM
(#10)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grade b View Post
ty Moxie,

I know that you'd need to grind A lot of these to make a profit.

Grade b
You're right on that one Grade b! Before black friday, I was just under 300 of them played. Was hoping to hit 1k of them... but then that thing called BF happened.

John (JWK24)


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Mon May 06, 2013, 05:17 PM
(#11)
Dreams78's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 15
FOLD FOLD AND FOLD!

I love these 50 fifty's. I have played in 419 so far this year and cashed in 368 of them

Its all about the patience
 
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Mon May 06, 2013, 05:17 PM
(#12)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
so while we are on the subject of grinding for a small profit over a large number of games. Personally i prefer regular over turbo for MTT and Sng so that's what i started with on the 50Fifty. but given that volume is the key and i tend to only 2-4 (mostly 2)table.

Would you recommend the turbos or adding more tables?

thanks

Grade b

ps i will also make this a question in beginners section for those who dont look in hand reviews

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon May 06, 2013, 05:36 PM
(#13)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,347
Fadyen was on my table for one of these today. During the afternoon (UK time) there seemed to be many more nitty regs from Easern Europe than usual, but there was still some crazy play.
This hand between a LAGfish and a station put my head in a such a spin, that I had trouble focussing on the rest of the game. So much for trying to conserve chips. :/


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Mon May 06, 2013, 05:51 PM
(#14)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
so no worry about the ace then!!!!

so after your head stopped spinning how did you do?

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon May 06, 2013, 06:10 PM
(#15)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,347
I had a bunch of 7th place finishes today. It was horrible. I couldn't win a 6bb flip to save my life! I've now played 33 in total, for $8.55 net profit, and 70% ITM, but today was the first time I've ever lost 2 in a row. (I was over 80% ITM till yesterday).
With such a small sample size it's impossible to detect major leaks, as variance plays a big role. I might do some leak-finding with my tracker at the end of this week, as I should be up to 100 games by then. In 33 tourneys, I've only been dealt 2000 hands, which is a virtually meaningless sample size, so I might even be a losing player in the long run.


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