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2NL FR Flop Ubermonster - How to get paid?

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2NL FR Flop Ubermonster - How to get paid? - Wed May 08, 2013, 04:24 AM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
The cut off limps and I raise to 4x with JJ in the small blind, getting a call in position from the cut-off.

I flop the ubermonster quads and first to act I check, but not yet sure if I will check/call or check/raise if the the opp bets.

They do bet - but it is a tiny 2 cent minimum. I decided to flat and try again on the turn, hoping they might put out a bigger bet next time round if their hand improves.

The turn is another low card - apart from the Jacks, which I have all four of, there is now a 2 and a 4 with two clubs - not much to have hit their range (I don't have much of a read but I'm thinking high cards, suited connectors or medium pair to flat my raise inposition HU preflop)

I check the turn again but they just make the min bet again. Should I raise now, which will look iffy as the turn changes nothing? I decide to flat call again. The river is 8c - completing flush draws, but this looks unlikely. Unwilling to check I make a ten cent bet (too small?) and they just call.

Could I have got more from them - or was it just dependent on them getting a better hand to have any chance of more chips.

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...162_12EF552A95

Ed

Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Wed May 08, 2013 at 04:30 AM..
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 04:42 AM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I think you played this perfectly. I've only been in this situation a handful of times and never made more than 10c profit. I've tried a few different techniques, including leading the flop, or raising the turn, or making a weird overbet (like 30c) on the river, but it's so hard for villain to have anything that you're almost never getting paid.
On this particular board, you kind of need villain to make the backdoor flush or a boat with 88. If there had been an ace or king on the board there might have been more value, but only if villain made a pair. If the flop was AJJ, then underpairs aren't calling. Against villain's actual hand (and other pocket pairs that missed), your line is ideal. Well played.


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Wed May 08, 2013, 05:22 AM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I would of raised the turn and basically said i got a 2, if they had an overpair like they did there calling because those 5s are bigger than that 2 and 4.

If it was a station then obviously bet for value i got 1 hand vs a super station and i just rammed $1.50 into a 30c pot on the the turn and shipped the river unluckily for me he made his flush all my big pots get rivered.

When i saw that 2c bet that looks like the sort of bet from a station so i wouldnt even raise to 6c i would just overbet they cant help themselves you don't need to disguise your hands with these guys he wont put you on a jack because all hes thinking about is i got 2 pair.

I would normally do your method there but even against a reg you should raise because whats the point in that extra 10c at the end when sometimes they will have an overpair and some regs will give you maybe 20c or so and fold the river if i was on bb with A4 and thet board came i would check the flop bet the turn and check/fold the river you could raise my bet on the turn i would fold putting you on a jack but if i had an overpair like QQ well then i would of called but folded to any big bets on the river.

Seems pointless to make a thew pennys when you should just go for value. Think of it like this would you rather play your quads the same every time and make peanuts or would you rather fire away and get some big pots going sometimes and other times your get whats been put in pre flop.
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 05:36 AM
(#4)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hi Ed!

My line may be way off here, but it seems to work for me. So, I thought I would add my two cents.

I suggest doing the betting yourself in hopes of taking him to valuetown. The best way to do this is usually to bet/raise as early as you can and as often as you can! Building the pot on the early streets helps make for larger bets on the latter streets. Plus, the larger the pot, the more "committed" the villain will feel. The only time I even consider slowplaying a hand is when the villain is known to be very aggressive and raised pf, e.g. he raises pf and you call with JJ. Then I would be more apt to check-call the flop.

Here you flop the jackpot I agree that it is hard to see how the flop can have helped the villain. But, he may have a hard time believing that it helped you as well. Additionally, you raised pf. So, a c-bet is expected. My standard play would be to make a 50% pot c-bet and hope that he continues. Many overcard hands, especailly Ax will call here, as well as pocket pairs. I like to bet/raise early while the villain still thinks they may improve or actually believes they have the best hand. Yes, sometimes c-betting causes the villain to fold, but my experience at 2NL is that I get paid off enough to make c-betting more profitable than check-calling or check-raising.

PS: I would lead with a c-bet at higher levels as well. Leading with a bet nicely conceals your "ubermonster" hand. I haven't flopped quads that often, but I have taken this line many times with sets, flopped flushes and straights.

Good luck Quad Mining

Roland GTX
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 05:42 AM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
I would of raised the turn and basically said i got a 2
Which hand that you raised pre-flop has a deuce in it?


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Wed May 08, 2013, 05:55 AM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I think Roland's recommended line is +EV in the long run. (But you need a really long "long run" to flop quads enough times to test it out!)
I'm not a fan of slowplaying in general, so if you can start building a pot when villain has something to call with, then betting out is great. I'd definitely play it fast at higher stakes, because no one expects you to have quads if you bet-bet-bet, and you'll stack all boats for sure.

This clip is a fun one, but the situation is slightly different, because Benny Spindler makes quads when the flop is all jacks... and Gomes has to pay him off, because he has AA. But notice that Spindler immediately raises, instead of slowplaying.



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Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Wed May 08, 2013 at 06:20 AM..
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 06:00 AM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I wouldnt arty i would just represent it if i actually had the quads, if you done that to a lag he would raise you and say well no i got a jack and il be thinking well actually no i got the j and the lag would now get carried away and keep building me a nice pot.

As for the station i have no idea what there thinking if i raise that 2 but im guessing there just thinking i got two pair whos cares il go all in with this hand as long as someone bets into me.

If i was the player with 55 and you bet that 2 well i might make a raise i might call but im always folding a river bet unless i hit a 5 and then edin would be welcome to my whole stack.
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 06:22 AM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I like your line roland but when i do that with a set they always fold the turn to another raaise by me si ive started raising flop cbet calling the turn and shipping the river after there bet.

Where it gets complicated is when they bet flop you raise and they check the turn they almost always fold if you bet here so i just check behind and let them think i was just trying to get them off a hand on the flop that's when they just make a nice bet on the river for you to raise.

I have a problem on wet boards with sets where you got oesd and flush draws possible and i bet river and turn when neither draws have hit then the oesd or flush draw hits the river, you now have a problem because against a good player they know you more than likely have two pair or a set with all that aggression so some clever players just pot the river with nothing knowing your scared of the straight or flush which ever one hit, so i dont know if i should fire the river again or check call/ check fold.

I check called the once to a massive over bet and called and he had the flush, he said in the chat i knew you would see that over bet as a massive bluff lol.
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 06:32 AM
(#9)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
I like your line roland but when i do that with a set they always fold the turn to another raaise by me si ive started raising flop cbet calling the turn and shipping the river after there bet.
I think your terminology is mixed up, or you're taking really weird lines.
If you bet the flop, you should bet the turn. You won't be raising at any point.
If villain bets the flop, then raising is good, and you should follow this up with a bet on the turn. If a villain folds the turn, that's fine. He should never have called the raise on the flop, unless he put you on a draw and plans to call down.
You'll rarely manage to get 3 streets of value, but trying to do so should be your aim when you have a big hand. Valuetown is not a place you can visit all that often. In fact, out of all the hands you might be dealt on a full ring table, you might only see the river about 5% of time, so showdowns are even rarer.


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Wed May 08, 2013, 07:00 AM
(#10)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hi mike2198!

Yeah, I agree that leading with a bet on the turn often results in a fold. How I play the turn is dependant on a number of factors, especially the turn card AND my read on the villain. Regs at 25NL for example will often float my c-bet with the intention of betting the turn if I check. So against this type of opp I would check the turn and let the villain do the betting.

My main point to Ed was that I would lead with a bet on the flop. I'm a firm believer in building the pot as early as you can with your strong made hands.

GL and have fun at the tables!

Roland GTX
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 09:02 AM
(#11)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
its where ive checked the turn to induce a bluff from aggro opponents because my image is tight they know when i barrel twice they have to fold after sitting at a table i could probably barrel twice with air and get them of TPTK.

I only barrel twice on wet boards with a set vs regs but on a dry boards i have to check the turn to induce a bluff, if i check out of position on a dry board on the turn aggro players always bet so il just call if i raise there folding i then hope they hit something on the river like an ace giving them TPTK so i can then raise there value bet on the river.

Only time im betting the flop and turn is on a wet board regardless of the player im against, if im against a station i bet every street on a dry or wet board.
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 09:06 AM
(#12)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Checking to induce a bluff is fancy play syndrome and it will mean you LOSE value for your set, and even allow villain to suck out for free (when he checks behind for a free card).
Don't get tricky. If you flop a set, bet-bet-bet.


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Wed May 08, 2013, 09:11 AM
(#13)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post
Hi mike2198!

Yeah, I agree that leading with a bet on the turn often results in a fold. How I play the turn is dependant on a number of factors, especially the turn card AND my read on the villain. Regs at 25NL for example will often float my c-bet with the intention of betting the turn if I check. So against this type of opp I would check the turn and let the villain do the betting.

My main point to Ed was that I would lead with a bet on the flop. I'm a firm believer in building the pot as early as you can with your strong made hands.

GL and have fun at the tables!

Roland GTX
This is the problem i came across yesterday with 1 reg at 5nl yesterday i ended with folding my top pair because my kicker was a Q so the next pot i got into i barreled him on the turn as well with TPTK the river was a scary card that i checked he then made a bet i thought he hasnt made a straight but he could have 2 pair plus and i couldnt call with TPTK and pop up on the other regs radar as a fish so i gave him that pot the 3rd time he called my 3x raise pre flop i just knew he was thinking about making moves again so when i missed the flop anyway i checked he bet i raised he folds, that put him in his place he made no more plays after that.

What do you do to get around these players when you dont hit on a dry board do you just give them the pot or do you do a check raise or have you got another trick up your sleeve?
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 09:29 AM
(#14)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
It was a player dependent move arty i would like to just bet bet bet but if someone bets the flop and turn into me i know im beat and im off without a second thought about it if i call a flop and a turn bet ive either got a two pair on a wet board or i got oesd draw and a flush draw, but i would raise the turn with both if the pot was pretty small for a nice value bet on the river if all draws miss with my 2 pair or if i hit my draw like a flush in the other situation.

So that way im looking at it is if i got a set on a dry board i cant expect the OOP to call two bets if i wouldnt call that with just a TPTK hand and if they had an overpair well they might call my cbet for pot control then make a value bet on the turn if it was a blank where i would raise and they might feel committed now and we can stack off on the river.

I can understand about that play can lead to people sucking out but they suck out with me even if i get my money in good anyway so i need other ways to make money, ive watched some training sessions and saw these lines i can t play so predictable vs regs.
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 10:10 AM
(#15)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I think you're giving 2NL villains too much credit for being able to make hero folds of top pair. Either that, or you're staying on tables that are reg-infested too often.
I pretty much avoid reg wars and just play big pots against calling stations. If you're on a table without a massive donator to your right, what are you doing on that table? There are 100 other better ones in the lobby.


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Wed May 08, 2013, 10:21 AM
(#16)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
i was on about 5nl skill level arty at 2nl i value bet stations theres like 2 regs at my tables max or im off, if i see good bet sizing for like 10 hands i dont bother waiting for stats im off i can spot cash cows in a single hand now so theres no problem there il spend 10 min or more looking for tables then il get notes colour code them and open another table and so on.
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 12:58 PM
(#17)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Going back to the OP, it's funny that I said this situation comes up so infrequently that it's hard to try out different lines, because on about my 15th hand of the day, I flopped quads on a JJ4 flop, just like Ed did.



Villain was a station (75% VPIP, 30% fold to c-bet) so I decided to bet 3 streets. Since it seemed likely the king on the turn helped him, I went for the overbet value-jam on the river, because he's never folding top boat. He tanked for 90 seconds before folding. I guess he just had a lousy 4 or underpair, so was playing the board. Next time this happens, I'll fast play it again, I think.


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Wed May 08, 2013, 03:36 PM
(#18)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Lots of interesting stuff there Arty/Mike/Roland

I think I will try just betting quads when I next flop them out of position - always going to be hard to get paid off in any case.

Just hope I keep flopping this good so I can test some different methods.



Ed
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 05:04 PM
(#19)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hello again Ed!

I posted a 2NL 6-Max Zoom hand of mine for analysis earlier today. Strange hand imo, but it is a clear example of my betting every chance I get line.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...nging-Question

GL!

Greg
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 05:30 PM
(#20)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Im surprised he never called the river there arty still i think you made the most value by betting at him he will just check back otherwise.
 

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