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SNG past the bubble

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SNG past the bubble - Wed May 08, 2013, 02:32 PM
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BlackHolden4's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
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hello. I usually play 45 & 90 player SNGs at buy in of 0.25. not turbos. Anyways, I usually do alright in these. I always get past the bubble. I get through in say 1st or 2nd position but then I end up losing. In a 45 game, 7 paid, I end up maybe 4th or 5th. In a 90 game maybe 8th or 9th. Rarely I go heads up.
So, I realize I need to improve on this part of the game.
Does anybody have tips/advice that might help me here?
Thank you x
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 03:21 PM
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mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I would love to help you but i cant even hit 20th place let alone 1st
 
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Wed May 08, 2013, 03:21 PM
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Hi BlackHolden4!

One key (and something I've been working on myself) is to not look to min cash. If I have the choice to take a +EV shot when say 10-12 are left that will get me to a top 3 chip stack, I'm taking it.... the times where I get the top 3 will well outweigh the 5th-7th's that I would get by waiting and not playing the hand.

I'm also taking more shots once I get ITM, so there, I will get more 6th's/7th's... but I'm playing for top 3's, because that's where the $$ is.

Doing this has lowered my ITM % about 4-5%, but it's over doubled my ROI.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Wed May 08, 2013, 04:33 PM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
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If you "always" get past the bubble, I want some of your rungood!
The variance in the 45s and 90s can be pretty wild. I think most of the profitable players in the 25c games are only getting ITM about 30-35% of the time, but that's often enough if they're making it to the final 3 fairly often. I haven't put in huge volume, but I was making money in the 45s with a 21% ITM finish. :/
Once you get to the final table, it's basically all about push-botting, as the average stack is often around 15bb. You can nit up and mincash, but if you want to win the big money, you need to find out who are the folders and who are the callers and pick your victims carefully. You can jam all in in late position vs the nitty types if they have medium stacks, but don't shove too wide against loose big stacks or short stacks in the blinds, as they are more likely to call. Also don't call when a really tight player shoves 10bb on the final table. Those guys always have hands like 99+ and AQ+. Let someone else make the mistake of doubling them up.

There are various videos in the archives for MTT final tables, so maybe you could learn by watching those.
God luck!


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Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Wed May 08, 2013 at 04:51 PM..
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 05:36 PM
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Thank you for your help everyone.

If I have like say an AJ, A10s, 99, I would normally raise & call an all in on the final table, but these are the sort of moves on the final table that make me lose! ALWAYS!

I've only played about 20 of these SNGs so far so I don't expect to get to the bubble every time the more I play. Just a lot of the players have some strange moves on here. Today somebody limped into me (BB), flop comes, I check, he goes all in. I call with two pair A & J. He shows 8 & 3! I don't expect to see this at the big money SNGs.

Since I only got a £10 deposit every month, I just trying to build it up small with the 0.25. Seems to take forever though to play a game and just to get a flimsy 1.50 back. The turbos are quicker but I am terrible at them- I don't get enough decent hands to play before the blinds go up and there is no return.
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 06:05 PM
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Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Push and raise rather than call is probably the biggest thing you can do that will improve your ROI. 44 for instance is a great raising/ shoving hand but almost useless to call with. You have to be aware of who's to act after you, no point raising with 44 against a player with a 70% VPiP and 0% fold to steal.
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHolden4 View Post
If I have like say an AJ, A10s, 99, I would normally raise & call an all in on the final table, but these are the sort of moves on the final table that make me lose! ALWAYS!
Shoving and calling a shove are 2 different things as it takes a much better hand to call a shove than to shove with. I would absolutely open-shove these at a FT on the right chip stack, but I'm basically never calling a shove with them, as they're too weak to do so with.
Also, if I'm willing to call a shove... I'm shoving first.

John (JWK24)


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shove - Tue May 14, 2013, 08:11 AM
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BlackHolden4's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
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So with hands A to 9 or 66+, if somebody raises before me, I fold quick as possible unless it's like a QQ KK AA AK I go for the shove.

However, if there are only limpers then I raise it up a bit. Am I understanding that correctly?

Oh, and if I am first to open, do I drop hands like AJ or do I 3x BB?

Also while we are here, I have another question :-)

Some like to call an AK a monster hand. I like it but if i'm up against a tight player on the final table and they raise or shove before me, should I call it?

I've found often enough that I might call or shove with the AK only to find they have KK or AA and take the pot down.

What would you do with AK if somebody shoved before you? Is it worth trash?

x

Last edited by BlackHolden4; Tue May 14, 2013 at 08:14 AM..
 
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Tue May 14, 2013, 08:44 AM
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Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHolden4 View Post
Some like to call an AK a monster hand. I like it but if i'm up against a tight player on the final table and they raise or shove before me, should I call it?

I've found often enough that I might call or shove with the AK only to find they have KK or AA and take the pot down.

What would you do with AK if somebody shoved before you? Is it worth trash?

x


I have a chance to do it. (evil grin) My personal opinion is that the ace-king combination is the most dangerous hand in poker. It looks so good that players will pay almost anything to see that flop. If I remember the odds, its success rate post flop is somewhere near 45% of the hands. This means it will cost you to see a flop, have long odds of hitting, and will most likely cost you a lot of chips. The reverse though is why you play them. Whenever they hit, you'll pull down a fairly large pot. So let me quote Clint Eastwood: "Do you feel lucky --- punk? Do you really feel lucky?"

Now every game and hand is different, so there is no universal rule. Best advice I would offer is to be cautious, but if you do decide to play this hand, do so with super aggression. If you're like me at the final table, number 9 of 9 with a stack that is just about a quarter of the player in 8th, an all-in pre flop isn't an unreasonable move.




Reason why I say this:
Ace-king has six outs for pairing or trips, same as any other two cards. However, players are more likely to hold than fold a hand that has one of these pre flop. Thus, if there are several players in the pot, your probabilities are slightly less in my opinion.

Ace-king is a closed-end straight. You need three cards for that straight - ten, jack, and queen. In too many hands, you will be hunting down an inside straight. Don't think I need to say much about the odds of hitting a one of four with just two draws remaining.

Ace-king is a potential nut hand when suited and the flush hits. Think about how many flops are one-suited. Even than, all three must be your suit. Again, a good hand with great potential, but you'll need at least two in your suit on the flop for any reasonable chance of hitting.
 
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Tue May 14, 2013, 10:42 AM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHolden4 View Post
Some like to call an AK a monster hand. I like it but if i'm up against a tight player on the final table and they raise or shove before me, should I call it?

I've found often enough that I might call or shove with the AK only to find they have KK or AA and take the pot down.

What would you do with AK if somebody shoved before you? Is it worth trash?
It all depends on stats/reads, stack sizes, position and the bubble situation. If we're already in the money and a typical TAG or LAG is shoving 6bb in MP, and I have 15bb on the button, I'm reshoving AK almost always, because the TAG will definitely be shoving with worse than AK, and I'm usually at least flipping. If the villain is a nitbox with a 3% PFR, and he jams in 20bb UTG, AK is an easy fold, because the nit usually has QQ+.
You have to alter your calling/reshoving ranges according to the situation. If you're confident you're well ahead of someone's shoving range, then get it in. If you're not confident, and you're not desperate just yet, then there's nothing wrong with folding. You usually have to win half a dozen or more races to actually win one of these tourneys, though, so you have to take a gamble sometimes if you want to do more than min-cash.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue May 14, 2013, 11:22 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHolden4 View Post
So with hands A to 9 or 66+, if somebody raises before me, I fold quick as possible unless it's like a QQ KK AA AK I go for the shove.

However, if there are only limpers then I raise it up a bit. Am I understanding that correctly?

Oh, and if I am first to open, do I drop hands like AJ or do I 3x BB?

Also while we are here, I have another question :-)

Some like to call an AK a monster hand. I like it but if i'm up against a tight player on the final table and they raise or shove before me, should I call it?

I've found often enough that I might call or shove with the AK only to find they have KK or AA and take the pot down.

What would you do with AK if somebody shoved before you? Is it worth trash?

x
With the first set of hands... it depends on the chip stacks as to whether I would shove or make a standard raise... stack sizes will mean everything here.

If there are limpers, then I need to add 1BB for each to my standard raise.

First to open... depends on the blind level. I open for 3BB+1BB for each limper, then at 100/200 I drop to 2.5BB+1BB for each limper, then at 1k/2k I drop again to 2.2BB+1BB for each limper.

Calling a shove with AK.. depends on the opp, their playing style and stack size. It may be a muck, may be a call. If a tight opp shoves, AK is going straight into the muck unless I'm a really short stack.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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