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Pre-Flop Play In Limit Hold'em

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Pre-Flop Play In Limit Hold'em - Mon May 13, 2013, 11:05 AM
(#1)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,034
(Community Coordinator)
Hello,

Let's use this thread to discuss the article about:

Pre Flop Play in Limit Hold'em

The full artice on the topic can be found: HERE



Please post any questions you may have on this topic here in this thread.

Cheers,

Raiser


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Mon May 13, 2013, 11:26 AM
(#2)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
What makes Limit frustrating for me is playing several whales that can't or won't fold. Even in position, you raise, reraise and try to thin the field, say holding AKs.

Is it worth building the pot when you have 2 or 3 players that can't fold? We know we only hit the flop 1 time in 3 but against 3 opponents if you miss then it's almost a certainty one of your opponents hit. Also if we miss and it's a big ish pot, we are sort of priced in to chase even though our opponents might have us crushed.

I know we should tighten our starting range on a very loose table but should we tighten our raising range, even if it becomes predictable?
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 01:58 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi Oval

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
What makes Limit frustrating for me is playing several whales that can't or won't fold. Even in position, you raise, reraise and try to thin the field, say holding AKs.
In table dynamics where players won't fold (super common in micro stakes LHE), raising to thin the field is a bad goal, as it won't often be realized. That doesn't mean we shouldn't raise (see next answer below), but that thinning the field should not be the goal.

Quote:
Is it worth building the pot when you have 2 or 3 players that can't fold? We know we only hit the flop 1 time in 3 but against 3 opponents if you miss then it's almost a certainty one of your opponents hit. Also if we miss and it's a big ish pot, we are sort of priced in to chase even though our opponents might have us crushed.
Yes, it's worth increasing the stakes when we have an edge. Limit HE is all about making +EV wagers. If we have the best of it at any particular time in the hand, money we put in then is +EV.

If we raise it up with AK and get 3+ opponents, and we miss the flop, checking and folding is ok, really. Putting more money in is no longer making a +EV wager when the likelihood someone hit something is strong due to the multi-way nature of the hand.

If the pot is really large, we might have odds to peel a card, like if it's a 6 way pot for 4 bets pre, there'd be 24 small bets in the pot preflop. Then a bet and 3 callers to us and now we are getting 28-1 to take a card off. This is an extreme example obviously but sure we can take a card for 1 bet here. I wouldn't always though. If we held AsKs for example and the flop were Ts5d3h we can take one off for sure with 28-1 having both back door straight and flush draws to the nuts. If the board were 8h7h6c however I would not even getting the huge price... an A or K coming may not even be good as we can still lose to 2 pair, sets, or be drawing dead now to a straight, and we have no back door draws to pick up.

Quote:
I know we should tighten our starting range on a very loose table but should we tighten our raising range, even if it becomes predictable?
Yes. Predictable only hurts us if the opponents can:

1) identify what we are doing that's predictable
2) adjust to exploit us

In many cases (most at micros) the opponents won't be able to do either.


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Mon May 13, 2013, 03:50 PM
(#4)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I'm also assuming this is full ring although the article doesn't make it clear. What tweaks are needed for short handed 6 max games?

I'm basically playing this game but as I mentioned I do adapt to table and players. The sad thing is I'm breaking even and can't crack the cash aspect of this game. Where I do win in Limit is in STT form as changing gears is critical in a STT.

Where does someone take this further, past the beginners aspect?
 
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Thu May 16, 2013, 10:42 AM
(#5)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,034
(Community Coordinator)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
I'm also assuming this is full ring although the article doesn't make it clear.

Where does someone take this further, past the beginners aspect?
Hey Ovalman,

I just had a quick look at the article and the chart is based on a fullring table, quote:

'The following starting hand chart is based on a table with nine players. If there are less than nine players, decisions are more difficult to make, and beginners may have problems coping'.


As with the majority of articles at PSO it's designed purely for beginners. The only thing I can suggest is to post plenty of questions in the LHE Forum and post some Hands for analysis.

The LHE Forum is very quiet compared to the NLHE Forum but here's hoping it picks up

Raiser


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Thu May 16, 2013, 03:29 PM
(#6)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Will do regards posting more hands and questions. I like Limit games, I'd like to learn it a bit better.
 
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Wed May 22, 2013, 08:45 AM
(#7)
adohole's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,083
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heey ovalman, you said you want to tighten up at a loose table thats not able to fold. i try to see the flop for a small price when people are playing all there hands. the ussualy cant fold post flop so if you hit big you make them pay if you dont hit you just fold. this also can tilt them withc is even more +ev :P


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