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For Arty to analyse

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For Arty to analyse - Mon May 13, 2013, 02:43 PM
(#1)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Hope this is in the right thread

Hi Arty,

I just finished a short session of 5NL. So I decided to go through how I played this session for you to better understand how I play.

I played 397 hands in 45 minutes, 7 tables of Zoom. During this session, I won 43 hands (10.83%), BB/100 of 47.36, VPIP of 12.82, PFR of 10.00, Profit of $9.40 and +EV of $9.49 (I think).

I sat with a full BR each time ($5) and as soon as I hit a profit of 25% or more, I closed the table. Even if my BR at the table drops, I DO NOT top off, I fight my way back up.

I pulled up the top 5 winners (only 5 were above $1.00) and the top 2 loser (only 2 were below -$0.60).

Since you're a hand analyser, I'd be very happy if you would tell me how differently (if different) you would of played theses hands, Thanks

Hand #1



Hand #2



Hand #3



Hand #4



Hand #5



Hand #6



Hand #7



All these hands, I had no read on the players, since I don't usually play those stakes and like most of you know, I DON'T use a HUD

Hyakutake 1, 24 hands, left with $5.60
Hyakutake 2, 35 hands, left with $5.81
Hyakutake 3, 110 hands, left with $5.15
Hyakutake 4, 26 hands, left with $9.31
Hyakutake 5, 40 hands, left with $5.91
Hyakutake 6, 71 hands, left with $8.18
Hyakutake 7, 49 hands, left with $4.44

If anyone has question on why I played them like that or any questions, I'll be happy to respond

Thanks
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 03:17 PM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Hey nice hands, i got a quick question for you on hand 3 AKcc why did you only put 30c in to a $1 pot on the turn? Also why do you close the table at 25% profit and never auto re top up??
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 03:25 PM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Oh i got one more is it profitable in the long run to call 3bets pre flop with pocket 8s? i went set mining in zoom the other day with like 20 pocket pairs and i only hit a set twice and didn't even get a stack with them i was still in profit though because it was just the standard 3x raise preflop but if your calling 3 bets with PP to set mine are you losing money when you miss after paying 45c c to see a flop in the long run?
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 03:35 PM
(#4)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Hey Mike,

I don't always do that, but in this hand, the way he played, calling twice, I wanted him to take the lead, so I kind of played it as if I didn't have much and another time I'll make a 100% pot bet. You need to know in advance what your plan is, I knew that if he'd come back with a raise, I was going all in.

As for calling a 3 bet, it depends on the table dynamics, the players, your bankroll and you need to know when to fold. At this point I was up more than $2.00 overall (not only at this table), so $0.30 was worth the call and besides 77+ is part of my range (at least at 6-max)

As for the 25% profit, I believe in "take the money and run". All those little profits add up over time. In this challenge (since I hadn't played FR in a long time) I decided on 25%, but my standard is 50%.

Last edited by Sandtrap777; Mon May 13, 2013 at 03:38 PM..
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 03:39 PM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Most of these look fairly standard for FR 5NL, actually, although there are a couple of spots in which I would have folded to the action.

1. I don't normally open 88 UTG, but plenty of winners do, so it's not a big mistake, but when you get 3-bet, I think it's best to fold. If villain is at all competent, then a 3-bet vs UTG represents KK+, but I guess AK shows up sometimes. As played, you called and hit your set, so stacking off is fine. I like donking out on this board, because AK is definitely paying you off. I'm pretty shocked to see villain had T9s, and I'd definitely make a note that this guy either knowingly 3-bets light, or is just a complete maniac.

2. QQ UTG vs a 3-bet is - just like 88 - a fold for me, if villain is unknown. As I said above, villain will have KK+ pretty often. (If I was in his seat, I'm flat-calling with AK and all pairs except AA, in order to keep your range relatively wide).

3. AK on KQ87tt is a little weird, because you bet quite small on the turn, and this can cause a villain to try and bluff you off your hand, as you've showed weakness. I'd usually bet bigger there, and fold to a raise, because big turn raises usually mean "I can beat TPTK".

4. 3-betting QQ is standard there, and c-betting on the monotone board is fine too. Villain will usually fold if he has no diamonds. His check-call is a little worrying. Could be a made flush, or a slow-played set, as a lot of guys at these stakes don't seem to like raising on monotone flops. I'm really not sure about how to play the turn, since you have a flush, but won't often get called by worse ones. When the river is another diamond I'm calling, because when the turn checks through it looks like you have no flush, so villain will be betting the river whether he has it or not. It also seems unlikely he has a better flush than you, because hands like AK with a diamond would usually 4-bet pre-flop, not call OOP. So calling the river is good.

5. AA 3-handed. I've been making a few overbets lately with decent success, but I usually wait until the turn, so I've narrowed villain's range a bit. When you jam the flop, there aren't a whole lot of worse hands that can call. Sets are possible, but there are also some flush and straight draws and T9 has two pairs. There's usually more value in getting called by the draw when you make a standard bet on the flop, as they'll often fold to larger bet. This villain is obviously terribad if he's calling all in with top pair, no kicker. The only thing he beats is a bluff. Add him to your fish list quick!

6. Calling a raise with QTs is OK if you're pretty sure one of the blinds will come along too, but you need pretty good reads/stats to be able to play this profitably heads up, even with the benefit of position. You hit a monster flop with the flush draw to go with your top pair, so betting for value when villain declines to c-bet looks good to me. His CRAI is really scary. It looks like he's going for max value with a set, unless he tends to play nut flush draws in this uber-aggro manner. My gut would say I'm beat, so then it's a case of looking at the pot odds and working out if your flush draw has enough equity to make calling profitable. In this particular case, the pot lays odds that translate to you needing 46% equity. With just the flush draw, you have much less than that (against a set, you have about 26%), so folding would be the right play.

7. 3-betting AA is super-standard, and post-flop looks fine. The board is pretty wet on the turn, but most of the time when someone calls a 3-bet OOP they have a medium pocket pair, so I wouldn't be too worried about a straight. Villain is either slowplaying a set, or he missed with 88/77. You can bet the river sometimes, but checking it back is fine too, as it's hard to get called by worse.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 03:48 PM
(#6)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Ok sandtrap fair enough ive tried it like that before and dont get that raise lol anyway i read somewhere in one of your post not sure but at 2nl you said you over bet on the flop for max value by how much are you doing this are they paying you off alot of the time?

For example if you had that AK hand and put 30c on the flop of a pot of 20c are they calling? so then comes the turn how much do you bet now? trouble is i don't like stacking off with just TPTK unless im up against a station, I cant seem to get alot of money out of my hands and im guessing your doing something different to me a 2nl or at least you was?

Cheers
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 04:28 PM
(#7)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Thanks Arty for your time, here's my thoughts on the hands. (don't mean that I was right)

1) 88 UTG at 6-max is normal for me and the more I know the players at the tables, I'll even open up with 22. The important thing here is that you must fold if you don't catch, which I will do (depending on the flop and the player involved). Calling a 3-bet is not the norm, lots will be taken in consideration before I do, such as bankroll, player, position, cards, etc. We are thought that you only open with category 1, it's true when you're starting out in poker, but you must then evolve by knowing your limits.

2) QQ hand, will never fold. I have him covered, he hasn't top off and for me $2.46, I can afford and if I lose, I'm pretty confident, I will win it back. Like I've said in other threads, I don't top of, so I work my way back with lots of patience. Just for your info, I dropped to $0.94 and closed the table 3 with $5.15. In this hand I took a chance and it backfires on me, it happens, can't always be lucky...lol

3) Like I answered to Mike, I wanted him to take over the betting, as I already had made my mind to go all in on a raise. That's why it's important to have a plan.

4) You're probably right here. All I was doing is a C-bet, if he would of raised, it was a fold. At higher stakes you don't see much slow plays, people want value

5) The reason for the all in on this hand, is that I'm already down from my original BR, I want to eliminate one player and that the board is wet. So if a player is willing to lose money (or make), let him come and play. Remember, on the long run, you will always come out ahead against those that chase flushes and straights. (I can them fishies, as they are fishing with nothing).

6) You're right, but just like earlier (hand #2), had him covered, could fight my way back, but mainly, I had many outs and was willing to risk $2.43.

7) Standard play

Again, Thanks
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 04:39 PM
(#8)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Ok sandtrap fair enough ive tried it like that before and dont get that raise lol anyway i read somewhere in one of your post not sure but at 2nl you said you over bet on the flop for max value by how much are you doing this are they paying you off alot of the time?

For example if you had that AK hand and put 30c on the flop of a pot of 20c are they calling? so then comes the turn how much do you bet now? trouble is i don't like stacking off with just TPTK unless im up against a station, I cant seem to get alot of money out of my hands and im guessing your doing something different to me a 2nl or at least you was?

Cheers
For your example, You have AK and put 30c on the flop, what's the flop? If there's no A or K on the flop, I wouldn't bet 30 and what's the turn? What are the notes you have on the player? what is your position? What's your BR? I just don't over bet for no reason. What's your plan with your AK?

Players think that with any specific cards that they must play a certain way, HUGE mistake, there's lots to take in consideration. I see so many AK go all in, WHY? Any 2 cards pre flop can win and most of the time people folded to an all in, so where's the value?

As for the question of over betting, what I meant is, if the pot is 13c, I'll bet 12c and not 8c. Do I get paid off? not often, but like I've said, I'd rather get some money than none.
 
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Mon May 13, 2013, 06:02 PM
(#9)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
For your example, You have AK and put 30c on the flop, what's the flop? If there's no A or K on the flop, I wouldn't bet 30 and what's the turn? What are the notes you have on the player? what is your position? What's your BR? I just don't over bet for no reason. What's your plan with your AK?

I ment in that AK hand you posted up if that was in 2nl how would you play that?
My plan with AK is to hit top pair and have a station call me down hoping to hit a flush draw if the board was dry and someone raises well im pretty certain im beat if the board was wet and no ones raising my bets i know there drawing so i want max value i should probably just pot the turn here and get max value but never do

Why does position matter? if i have AK on a A59 board and im on the button and villain checks he probably has nothing so why bet hes going to fold right so il check and hope he hits the turn and then i can fire away the only time this back fires is if he hits a set on the turn or made two small pairs but they just let you know by raising your turn bet anyway so i don't mind giving that free card.

If i was UTG and i open AK for 3x and the button calls and i hit AK im going to bet if if the board is wet or not my bet sizes are based on the board not my hand strength, so yh that's my line i was wondering how you go about it because im sure your making more value in places than me if your getting that many BB/100 then again i only play 1 zoom table so i guess you will see better hands more often than me which is why you probably don't mess around stealing, i opened 9 normal tables before and just played premiums and it kept me busy between all the tables i had like 9vpip but when i play 1 it goes between 15 and 20 i have got abit looser recently my average was 15 vpip but im seeing my vpip hitting 20 alot now. so yeah thats how i think when i see a flop and start betting i don't think i got AK lets get all in but at the same time i think i could get more value for my hands.

I just had one hand here i had these two players and 1 i had noted as a station and the other liked betting his top pair all in if he can so was easy money but this is a hand i don't get often enough.




As you can see i called a open raise from UTG with a pretty bad hand but i did it because the situation was right i had two cash cows in the pot and if i miss the flop i lose 6c so what i had a good opportunity to get a nice pot, with that in mind i hit big i now want to get all my money in the middle i don't care about sets here im getting it in regardless i play by whats on the board when i got TP i cant be a mind reader and worry about sets my min raise on the flop wasn't brilliant but i was sure i will get raised as i have notes.

Last edited by mike2198; Mon May 13, 2013 at 06:05 PM..
 
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Tue May 14, 2013, 11:15 AM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
On that hand, Mike, the minraise is really bad. With that action, a flush draw is definitely possible and the minraise sets a bargain price to call and hit it. In multiway pots, your bets and raises should be bigger than in heads up pots, in order to deny villains the right price. The pot is already 59c when the action reaches you. If you're going with this hand (and I would against these players), you should just shove all in, because a pot-sized raise is about half your stack. You can't put in half your stack and then fold, so get it in at the earliest opportunity and start printing money.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue May 14, 2013, 12:10 PM
(#11)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Mike, I'll give you my 2 cents view on this hand and remember, it's from a nit's view..lol

First, this hand is a fold. It's just like A-rag, but you've got K-rag and please don't tell me "ya but they're suited"....lol. Ask yourself "what am I expecting to get here?" Pair of K's? Possible flush? You just started as your stack is at $2, maybe if you were up by $1 then sure you can test the waters and be prepare to fold without hesitation. That's how so many people spew chips, sure you can get lucky, then the problem is that you'll believe that K3s is a very good hand to play. Also it's not because these players like to spew chips as they could be holding a monster hand for once.

But you did play it, so the way you played it, is exactly the way I would of played. With a wet board, I would of wanted to keep the pot low, so 3 betting is what I would of done. With 2 players involve, someone is going for a flush. Against someone going for a flush, it's pretty much 50/50 (pokerstove)

The danger of an all in, is losing chips because the players will fold, losing the pot because the player hits his flush and at this level, players with a possible straight or flush, will never let go. So my decision will be based on my stack (am I positive and can I afford to lose some), what do I know about these players?

Like I said, it's just my 2 cents and my 2 cents have gone pretty far....LOL

Good luck
 
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Tue May 14, 2013, 01:00 PM
(#12)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Just thought i would say i wasnt folding that hand Arty i know i could of 3x it but i wanted to keep the station in he might of stacked off on the flop he might not of but the player i raised i was 50/50 he would re raise, i know he likes getting it in when he had top pair.

Yh sandtrap i know that hand is trash and i would never open that hand normally i opened it because i had to noted cash cows in my hand and i couldn't resist the opportunity of taking there stacks lets be honest i was lucky to flop 2 pair, if i hit just a king when the villain with top pair bet i would of folded with out a second thought because that kicker is to weak.
 
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Tue May 14, 2013, 01:11 PM
(#13)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
A bare flush draw (no overcards) is never a 50/50 proposition against a made hand. If villains want to call off their whole stack with just a flush draw, I'd happily take that bet every time.
In Mike's actual situation, the equity is pretty close, because one player has a pair as well his flush draw, and the other player has one of Mike's outs to a boat.
One of the reasons to make a big overbet is to force one of these guys out of the pot, because you have a better chance of winning against one player than two.
Here's the 3-way equity split:

Board:
----       Equity     Win     Tie
Hero    46.48%  46.26%   0.22% { Kd3d }
Vill2   43.99%  43.99%   0.00% { 5h2h }
Vill4      9.53%   9.31%   0.22% { KsTd }

If Mike shoves, it's a post-flop squeeze that puts villain 2 in a horrible spot, as he's not closing the action, and the betting has indicated he is definitely not getting it in good. He's not priced in to call with his draw, so would often fold. If he folds, then Mike is a massive favourite vs KT. If the flush draw calls, it's still a very profitable shove for Mike, because he'll be contributing about a third of the pot, but expects to win 46% of the time. It's therefore a +EV play.
Making a small bet is not +EV, because then the flush draw IS priced in to call, so villain won't be making a mistake by calling. We make money from our opponents' mistakes. Stacking off with a flush draw is a big mistake and I'm very happy that villains will frequently make it. They will suck out and win my stack some of the time, but in the long run, I'm crushing them.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue May 14, 2013, 01:23 PM
(#14)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
That makes perfect sense to me Arty but i didnt really want him to fold i wanted his whole stack and was hoping for the raise it kind of played perfectly for me in that way because we did get all in on the flop like i wanted it to but yeah i spose i should of 3x it in the 1st place.
 
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Tue May 14, 2013, 01:29 PM
(#15)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
That makes perfect sense to me Arty but i didnt really want him to fold i wanted his whole stack and was hoping for the raise it kind of played perfectly for me in that way because we did get all in on the flop like i wanted it to but yeah i spose i should of 3x it in the 1st place.
Mike,

The key is to try to get their stack where the opp expects to lose (making a -EV play)... when the opp gets a +EV play, like the flush draw here, the opp expects to gain chips from it... not us gaining chips from betting with 2 pair. If the opp is making the positive play, the WILL win chips on average from us, is the player making the best play, and due to that deserves to win. If we do this over and over, we'll keep getting stacked over and over.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue May 14, 2013, 01:54 PM
(#16)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Arty, I meant 50/50 between the 2 players (46% 44%)
 

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