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25nl - KQ, 2 pair. Missed thin river value?

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25nl - KQ, 2 pair. Missed thin river value? - Thu May 16, 2013, 04:16 PM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
The SB was playing LAG but he didn't seems to be very good, I'd seen him check the turn and river OOP with the turned nuts after cbetting the flop.

Over 83 hands his stats were - 33/24/11.1 AF 2.2

The SB was a fish who liked to donkbet a lot of flops, but once faced aggression played face up.



I think the hand plays out super standard preflop/flop/turn but on the river I'm unsure if I missed a value bet. Given that we haven't seen the villain make any calls that were worth noting is the river always a check back. I think that when hearts complete AK (if he doesn't 3bet this pre), KJ and KT can definately find a fold so we are basically value cutting ourselves if we bet?

Is it ever worth betting really small, say 1/4 pot, in a spot like this?

Thanks

Oli


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Thu May 16, 2013, 04:58 PM
(#2)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hey Oli,
I think I would have checked river too.
The real value was missed OTT I think by betting 1/2 pot. I would have made it something like 7$
 
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Thu May 16, 2013, 05:09 PM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
You could always bet fold the river
 
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Thu May 16, 2013, 06:40 PM
(#4)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Hey Oli,
I think I would have checked river too.
The real value was missed OTT I think by betting 1/2 pot. I would have made it something like 7$
Agreed that my turn bet is a bit small. I like $7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
You could always bet fold the river
If I bet the river I'm always folding if he raises as he won't do it with worse. I'm just wondering if it's okay to bet the river since it's hard to get called by worse.


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Fri May 17, 2013, 12:28 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Oli,

I'm not sure raising the flop is "super standard" tbh, I think we let a lot of worse hands off the hook here with this raise and our hand strength isn't one that wants to build a huge pot either. You gave info about the SB's liking to donk bet, but he doesn't here, the BB does, so it doesn't help us. Is the BB bad enough that he will call a raise and call us down with KJ? Since we have no info on the BB I prefer to call the flop and use our position to make a better decision on the turn. If we get 3b on the flop here I think we have to let it go, but not really liking that as it gives someone with a flush draw a great semi-bluffing opportunity and someone who decides to be a monkey with KT a chance to put us in a really gross spot.

I think checking down the river is fine here. We are losing value from weak kings but with the read that he is a LAG who slow plays big hands, I could see him check-calling a set of 2's and not betting the river because the flush card came. Or checking the flush when he was on the draw to let us bet. I don't mind betting either, as it's probably close, but I'd go about 9.50 in that case.

Really surprised to see the showdown, his play is wowbad, and we are lucky we didn't get put into a pickle before the turn.


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Fri May 17, 2013, 06:28 AM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Dave, I think Oliver meant that BB was a fish that liked to donk flops a lot. Do you still think raising his flop donk is bad?
 
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Fri May 17, 2013, 07:14 AM
(#7)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the analysis, as Geo said I did mean the BB is the donk happy fish but mistyped in my haste. Knowing this how do you feel about donking. The reason I rasied was to charge all his weak hands as well as getting value from teh SB if he held a FD or worse TP. Fwiw the BB was playing 47/17/3.6 and had donked 6/12 flops.

Thanks again

Oli


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Fri May 17, 2013, 11:16 AM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
The (BB) was a fish who liked to donkbet a lot of flops, but once faced aggression played face up.
So he's got a lot of weaker hands and air, in fact most of his range, and once you raise he will play face up (fold most of this range).

Quote:
The reason I rasied was to charge all his weak hands

But do you see now, that's exactly what you're not doing by raising, you're letting him off the hook as cheaply as possible.



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Fri May 17, 2013, 04:31 PM
(#9)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Is the thinking here Dave that the BB is playing such a wide range that by raising his donk bet you lose potential value while the bet itself represents the K; which you could expect a player not to raise to disguise his holding in further streets? The caveat being that your Ks Q kicker could be sucked out on in later streets.

I just remember a similar hand when the cards were face up and Croyd had K10 and hit his K on the flop and raised and you called with Q7 (a pair on the flop) I think and hit a 7 to stack him. You mentioned then that you did not expect him to raise the Ks on the flop. Is this a similar situation?

Cheers,

TC
 

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