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5NL FR: Short Stacked vs Turn Shove

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5NL FR: Short Stacked vs Turn Shove - Thu May 16, 2013, 07:54 PM
(#1)
Low Rated's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 114
Hey guys.

I'm moving up stakes so I'm playing short stacked until I feel confident and or get the BR up to $250+. Definitely not a pro short stack but I don't think I need to be.



Villain was a donkey.

Pre Flop raise and C-bet are pretty standard imo. So villain calls and the turn pairs the board, then the villain shoves.

At this point I'm at a loss as to what the villain could possibly be holding that would call a flop bet and shove on that turn card.

A TP hand would probably have x/raised all in OTF or OTT. A pair like an 8 or PP would likely x/c to the river or shove if he felt he was best OTF. So I have him ranged on either a draw or a monster, I'm getting 3:1 odds w/ some outs to TP or some made pairs/PPs so I decide to make the call.

Was I fortunate here or was my reasoning sound? Thanks for reading.
 
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Fri May 17, 2013, 12:43 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,650
(Head Trainer)
Hi LR,

I think this call is not good. You will often be shown something like KT here, possibly with spades, or he just decides he's not folding and not giving you a free card so he shoves. You'll also see a hand like 6x played this way by bad players.

I think you got very fortunate, apparently this guy was planning to make a move all along, which is crazy since you raised big preflop and continuation bet big (too big actually) on the flop, he shouldn't think you're folding a hand like AK. And yet he called the flop out of position with no pair, no draw, and no overs. Almost seems like he was just clicking buttons, it makes no sense what so ever. When you're up against someone who makes no sense, you can't put him on thoughts and polarized ranges and such. He may in fact do this with 98. Why? I have no idea, but I also have no idea why he did it with QJ either. But we can't say with any confidence if he had an 8 he would just check call to the river, because he's not going to make sense with his decisions.

Flop c-bet can be much smaller here than 80% pot, on a dry K high board they will often simply fold to the smaller bet if they don't have a king, and you have few good cards to bet on the turn vs. these opponents if called, in fact probably should only bet an ace turn, so I'd cbet .30-.35c here... plenty to get the job done vs. their whiffs and save yourself some money vs. Kx.

Check/call-shove QJ high, my word.


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Fri May 17, 2013, 05:52 AM
(#3)
Low Rated's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 114
When you're up against someone who makes no sense, you can't put him on thoughts and polarized ranges and such. He may in fact do this with 98. Why? I have no idea, but I also have no idea why he did it with QJ either. But we can't say with any confidence if he had an 8 he would just check call to the river, because he's not going to make sense with his decisions.

Thanks Dave . I kinda have a hard time folding to lines that don't make sense when I think I have the best hand and this guy was being a donkey all day. I probably wont be making that call again .

Flop c-bet can be much smaller here than 80% pot, on a dry K high board they will often simply fold to the smaller bet if they don't have a king

While we are on the topic of C-betting, since I'm playing short stacked should I be betting smaller like 50% pot in medium sized pots like this one? I usually bet about 70% threatening a shove OTT.
 
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Fri May 17, 2013, 05:53 AM
(#4)
Low Rated's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 114
Quote:
When you're up against someone who makes no sense, you can't put him on thoughts and polarized ranges and such. He may in fact do this with 98. Why? I have no idea, but I also have no idea why he did it with QJ either. But we can't say with any confidence if he had an 8 he would just check call to the river, because he's not going to make sense with his decisions.
Thanks Dave . I kinda have a hard time folding to lines that don't make sense when I think I have the best hand and this guy was being a donkey all day. I probably wont be making that call again .

Quote:
Flop c-bet can be much smaller here than 80% pot, on a dry K high board they will often simply fold to the smaller bet if they don't have a king
While we are on the topic of C-betting, since I'm playing short stacked should I be betting smaller like 50% pot in medium sized pots like this one? I usually bet about 70% threatening a shove OTT.[/QUOTE]
 
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Fri May 17, 2013, 08:31 AM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Rated View Post
While we are on the topic of C-betting, since I'm playing short stacked should I be betting smaller like 50% pot in medium sized pots like this one? I usually bet about 70% threatening a shove OTT.
If you had a value hand here, your sizing would be more or less perfect, because of your short stack. You want to choose a betsize on the flop that means your turn bet won't be an overbet.
When I used to play short, my plan was usually to get my stack in on the turn. I'd typically do this by betting a third of my stack on the flop, and the other two thirds on the turn. It's "natural" for bet sizes to double from one street to the next, so when you're on something like $2, go with 65c on flop and $1.35 on the turn. (You can use the bet-slider to measure out the "1/3 of stack" amount pretty accurately).
If you missed the flop, then betting smaller is much better. You don't want to get committed immediately, but if you get called and improve on the turn, you can choose smaller bet-sizes that get the rest in on the final two streets.


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Fri May 17, 2013, 09:31 AM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,650
(Head Trainer)
I see what you're saying, but I'm considering sizing for the goal, we don't need to bomb the flop to get them to fold their missed hands. And with AJ high I'm not planning to shove the turn anyway if called on a dry board as loose fish will have us beat and be calling again.


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Fri May 17, 2013, 07:34 PM
(#7)
Low Rated's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 114
Ok so the general idea is bet big when you hit to set up the shove and bet the minimum required to get them to fold. Makes sense, thanks guys.
 

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