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In this case How can I play AA in post flop?

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In this case How can I play AA in post flop? - Sat May 18, 2013, 06:20 AM
(#1)
omote23's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 44


first I raised 0.03 to 0.07 reraise to AA
and Flop is 8s 7s Qd
and I bet 0.34 and other folds But one opponents was shove All in
I call and Saw a Turn and river
but I lost Ace pair by 7set
So. Is this a Wrong in SSS Strategy?

and Next hand

First I call to slow play in AA
and Flop is Jh Td 6c
I check in OOP and he Check
But turn comes 9s
I all in and he Call and he shows KQ and I lost


So. in those case how can I play AA?
 
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Sat May 18, 2013, 06:48 AM
(#2)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
First hand, you need to raise more, there is a min raiser and a caller ahead of you, I would suggest 18c to 22c. You might fold out some of the players but that is fine IMO.

You then overbet the pot on the flop - weaker hands will usually fold and you will get looked up by better hands. When he shoves, he either has the flush draw or a set IMO, but given the pot odds I still think you have to call I think.

Second hand, dont slow play Aces, and the result of this hand is why I say that.

Open limping from early position is just bad IMO, if you have a read that suggests someone will likely raise you, and you then plan to re-raise them after your limp, then it is more understandable but still bad IMO. Checking on the flop is bad too IMO. If you are ahead you want to start getting money in now, there is a potential straight on the board, and I would want to charge the drawing hands a price.

When he raises, you just min raise, given your stack size (Which is another problem - you should really auto top-up unless playing a short stack strategy) you might as well just shove and exercise what little fold equity you have and if you get a call then you might still be good some of the time.

Be more aggressive with your aces is my advice. Raise bigger pre when there are limpers or raises and/or calls ahead of you. And never slow play IMO unless there is a really good reason for it.
 
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Sat May 18, 2013, 07:12 AM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
Hi omote,

The second hand is played really badly. Slowplaying AA (or any hand really) is not recommended. It pretty much allows a villain to suck out and beat you for free. With my big hands, I play FAST, betting and raising when I'm sure I'm ahead.

The first hand is played a bit better, but you need to work on your bet-sizing. I'll run you through the hand and explain how I'd play it.
Before you act, there is a minraise UTG and a call. The initial raise is less than a standard raise (3bb), so it's unlikely to be a monster hand, but villain clearly likes his hand enough to raise with it. He might have something like a medium pocket pair, or a some suited Broadways like KQs. The caller will probably have something weaker, or he would have re-raised.
Now the action is on you. You can't be losing here with AA, so you want to start building a pot. You also don't want to be up against several players on the flop, because that will mean your aces are more likely to get cracked, and it will also be harder to play. It's easier to be heads up, because then you only have to narrow the range of one player.
To get value for your hand you need to make a raise that is about the size of the pot. A standard 3-bet re-raise versus one player is three times the size of the original raise, but when there is a caller, you should bump it up to 4x. You therefore want to make it about 16c or even 20c here. This will mean the hand is much less likely to be multiway, and it will be a mistake for a villain to call with a speculative hand. We make money from our opponents' mistakes, so let them make a BIG mistake. If you bump it up to 16c, this hand would probably have a totally different result.
You just minraised to 8c. Minraises are not recommended. Not only do they miss value (villain will call a bigger bet with a worse hand). It also means villains have a bargain price to call, because the pot lays good odds. After you raise, the pot contains 18c, and the original raiser only needs to call 4c. He's not making a big mistake if he calls that amount. Once the BB calls, the original raiser and caller get even better pot odds, so you see the flop 4-handed.
The flop comes Q87 in two suits, so it's pretty wet, with flush and straight draws. Making a c-bet is definitely correct, but again your sizing is off. There's 30c in the pot, and you made an overbet of 34c. There are two issues here. Firstly, when you make an overbet, it's hard to get called by worse. The only hands that will call an overbet are hands that beat you! The second problem is that you put half of your remaining stack in, leaving 31c behind. You've made yourself pot-committed. This would be fine if you had the best hand, but your overbet will fold out worse hands. You're committed to stacking off, when you're only getting it in against hands that beat you! If there is a call, then the pot will be about a dollar and you'll have only a bet of one third of pot behind. Even if the turn is a horrible card, like the , you'll have to put the rest of your money in, because the pot will be large and your stack will be small.

Since you're short-stacked, I'd generally be committed to stacking off with an overpair here, but I'd get my money in by using standard bet sizes or between half pot and full pot, so that worse hands and draws could call, thus giving my hand its value. From a 65c stack, I'd put in 20c on the flop, and 45c on the turn.
As played, you get "value-owned". Drawing hands don't want to call your overbet, but a flopped set definitely will. Villain check-raises all in, and you have to call because you are pot-committed.

If you'd made a raise to 16c or 20c pre-flop, 77 would likely have folded pre-flop, because it didn't have the right odds to go set-mining. If villain had called a bigger raise pre-flop, then the pot would be so much bigger that you wouldn't be making a mistake by getting it in. In 3-bet heads up pots, it's fine to commit to stacking off with TPTK or an overpair. When the pot is smaller, you still have the opportunity to fold.
I think you still got unlucky here. Villain will only flop a set with his pocket pair 1 out of 8 times. He was lucky enough to hit it this time, and was fortunate that you'd put so much of your stack in that you were basically forced to pay him off.
Try and be more careful with your bet-sizes in future and think about how to maximise your value. Eliminate minraises from your arsenal. If you want to raise, make it at least 3 times the size of the current bet. When you get to the flop, bet between half pot and full pot. If a pot-sized bet is more than half your stack, just go all in.


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Sat May 18, 2013, 11:25 AM
(#4)
omote23's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 44
Thanks to all
so.. I will more learn implied odds and bet sizing.
And Dont slow playing AA.
 
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Sat May 18, 2013, 12:01 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,846
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**moved to better fitting forum JWK24**


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Sat May 18, 2013, 12:07 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
**Marking as evaluated.**


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Agree With Other Comments - Sat May 18, 2013, 12:39 PM
(#7)
DrEllenCait's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 125
BronzeStar
Given I am working on betting in cash games, these hands are of particular interest to me as timidity in betting causes all sorts of problems. With both, you are under betting, especially hand 2. Opening bid should be 3-bet (first hand 4-bet over opponent's opener). Checking says I have weak hand and with board 2, and this won't build a pot. Ditto to all that has been said. Most importantly, under betting can distort not only your hand, but can make it harder to get accurate info from opponent(s).

I started cash games afraid that if I bid big, such would see a small pot as all would fold. Be done with that! Bidding your hand accurately is best chance to build pot and if everyone does fold, such is the life of a poker player.

Importantly, as mentioned prior, listen to opponents' betting rather than falling in love with your hand, albeit it is hard not to fall in love with AA. With both hands it's very hard to fold, but especially with hand 1 when opponent bets 'All In', what is his/her hand? Is s/he trying to induce you to call, maybe fold? I have learned to take such bids at face value unless you have observed that s/he shoves to 'seduce' you to fold; however, evidence here from betting is that such is not the case.As you bid more accurately, you will typically get more accurate info from opponent(s). Thus with board 2, if you do not check, rather 4-bet, etc., opponent's betting will very likely be different. Only then can you 'hear' from opponent, that s/he has you beat. But no one wants to fold AA and you are brave to bring these hands to the forum!

I am re-reading, watching videos on anything I can find on betting right here on PSO. I think we also need more on 'listening to opponents betting. THANK YOU for bringing these hands to us.
 
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Sat May 18, 2013, 01:01 PM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
Hi Ellen. I just want to clarify something on the terminology for you, and it's something that many beginners have trouble with.

A "3-bet" is the third different bet size in a particular betting round. A "4-bet" is the fourth different bet-size.
e.g. Pre-flop, when the blinds have been posted, the starting bet size is 1bb, because it costs 1bb to call. This is the "1-bet". If there is a raise (of whatever amount), that is a "2-bet". If there is a re-raise, it's a "3-bet". A re-re-raise would be a 4-bet.

It's merely a coincididence that a standard size for a raise (2-bet) or a re-raise (3-bet) is three times the size of the last bet. So if UTG opens for 3bb, the standard size for the 3-bet re-raise would be to 9bb. If the first open was 2bb, then the standard size for the 3-bet would be 6bb.
When there has been a raise and a call, then our 3-bet should be bigger; typically being 4x the first raise. It's still a 3-bet (the third different bet-size), it's just a different size.

Hope this helps!


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Sat May 18, 2013, 01:38 PM
(#9)
blast126's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 204
BronzeStar
On the first hand you have a player that min raises and a call, you only double the bet, when you should raises at least 3 times and 1 more for each call, $0.16 bet. That slow play invite more players to call and the odds of get the aces cracked are higher. With a $0.16 raise probably the player with 77 won't call and you win the hand. Try to improve your bet size.
 

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