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5NL 6-max Zoom 77 on BB

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5NL 6-max Zoom 77 on BB - Mon May 20, 2013, 05:26 PM
(#1)
fp_boss77's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Hi, how could I get most value on this hand ?
villain is playing 21/13/3 - AF 8 - CB 67% over 239 hands.
I didn't raise the flop since his AF would pay me off on my hand I thought. So I decided to raise the turn since he wouldn't belive I'd have 77 or A7 and would probably overplay KQ,QJ,QT,KK,AA or some backdoor FD.
Should I've check call the turn to check raise the river ? but I'd feel a completly donkey if he checked behind lol.



Thanks
 
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Tue May 21, 2013, 02:55 AM
(#2)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi fp_boss,

I think you played this fine. I wouldn't raise the flop either as it's so dry and you rep a really strong range if you do so. When you make quads you want to get a lot of money in the pot and I like check-raising the turn. I would have made it bigger though, around $1-$1.10. Unfortunately he didn't have anything this time as most players at 5nl would call with TP.

NH

Oli


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Tue May 21, 2013, 04:09 AM
(#3)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey fp_boss

Not too much to add to Oliver's analysis!

I think this is a good spot to check-raise the turn for a few reasons.

Being oop we can't guarantee he will bet the river either as a bluff or for thin value.

So thinking about a hand like AJ/AK, he is unlikely to bluff these hands on the river, if he did on the turn. Even if he hits an A with AJ, a lot of players will check this back. So in short I think his double barrel bluff frequency will be very high compared to his triple barrel frequency and this means that the value of turn check-call goes down relative to check-raise.

Thinking of a hand like QJ/QK, these are also hands that our opponent may be loathe to value bet on the river, if we check-call the turn. So if he checks these hands back on the river, but calls them sometimes when facing a check-raise on the turn, we just have such a clearly better turn check-raise when considering these combinations.

I think these two hand types should be our main consideration in deciding between turn check-raise and turn check-call. Why? Well its easy to get money in versus AQ/KK/AA/33, those type of hands. We're always going to stack 33 and we should be stacking AA pretty often any which way. So we should consider the hands where villain will have to make a decision.

Hope that makes sense
 
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Tue May 21, 2013, 04:36 AM
(#4)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Interesting hand!

@Gareth, what do you think about 3-betting preflop? Against a single opponent and being oop, I often 3-bet my middle pairs in spots like this one.

Roland GTX
 
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Tue May 21, 2013, 08:07 AM
(#5)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Hey Roland

I would almost never three-bet 77-99 here. I don't like how they play against his continuing range preflop whether he calls or folds. I also think they are strong enough to call out of position versus his CO range. I think the same goes for 55-66 but there is more of a case for three-bet/folding them. I don't mind three-betting 22-44 at all, I think they play poorly enough as calls that we can put them in a three-betting range, but this of course, assumes we have a lot of fold equity preflop.
 
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Tue May 21, 2013, 08:48 AM
(#6)
fp_boss77's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks all of you guys for the insights on the hand.

 
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Tue May 21, 2013, 10:25 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,487
(Head Trainer)
I have an alternate opinion. Will ask Gareth to chime in on this too, curious whether or not he agrees.

I think check-raising the turn looks too strong. Gareth makes spot on points about what hands to focus on, 33/QQ and to a lessor extent AA don't matter much since it's hard not to stack those no matter what we do. But the Qx hands will often bet/fold to such a strong turn move, this is the staple play of the TAG, the bet/fold. One way to thwart this is to check/call the turn, then donk into him on the river. Regs almost never see this because it's a rare line, so they have no HUD stats to help them figure out what it means. And it makes no sense to them. And when confused, they call with showdown value hands. If we bet about half the pot, we'll tend to get called by all Qx hands, and still stack the monsters because they'll raise us.

Also, this line has the side benefit of not folding out light double barrels on the turn like AK or TT. Oh the humanity if he's double barreling TT and a T peels on the river.

It can backfire, like if an K or A comes on the river and scares him, but sometimes it makes him top 2 as well which may get our donk lead raised, so on balance I think this is a nice alternative to get 3 streets from showdown value hands.


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Tue May 21, 2013, 10:33 AM
(#8)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Yeah I agree with Dave. Not too much to add to it -- he lays out the reasons to think its a great alternative line. This guy has AF = 8 so that's one issue we have to grapple with -- he doesn't like to call. But on the whole, he could always raise our 1/2 pot river lead. So his spazz-raising frequency could offset his dislike of calling and if an AF guy calls in any spot, its with QJ on a 5 river in this spot.
 

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