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Live £1/£1 game 200bb deep with full house OTT.

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Live £1/£1 game 200bb deep with full house OTT. - Wed May 22, 2013, 08:19 PM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
This hand was from a game I played Monday night at the local casino. A final table deal had livened the game up a bit as there was some fresh chips up for grabs.

UTG+2 straddled to £2 and UTG+3 min raised, 1 fold, 1 call, and everyone folds to me in the BB.

The caller is a weak player, he plays too loose and passive preflop and very fit or fold postflop. He applies pressure with TP+ and is playing on around 50bb's. He's rebought 2-3 times every time for 20-40bb.

The player that over called is somewhat tight and has built his stack to over 200bb's. In limped pots and in late postion I have seen him call with weak holdings such as Q9o. Against this player I would value bet my TP hands strongly but aiming to get 1-2 streets.

I'm in the BB with KQo and I figure it's a good spot to raise, I have a strong TAG image at the table and have also shown I'm willing to give action getting in with TP twice on wet flops. They are both likely to call with hands as weak as JT or QT and the players left to act behind me will play honestly to my raise. I make it £15.

Both players called my raise and we took a flop 3 way. The flop came AAQr. Here I figured they was no point in betting, I don't expect either player to bet their PP's or draws on that flop. This means when they bet I actually have an easy fold...?

I decided to check and both players check behind without much thought. The turn brings another Q.

At the time I though this was an insta-bet. However now I look at it I think it may be a good spot to check. If I bet will hands such as TT even call? If I check they will get curious and surely look me up on the river. Also I can call a bet now if anyone makes one, perhaps bet/folding the river for value.

In the end I decided to bet 25 into 50. The fit or fold player folded and the CO thought for about 30 seconds while fingering his chips and looking at his stack. He then raised to around £80 throwing out the chips out pretty lavishly.

At this point I'm unsure if he's raising a Q in this spot. In a previous pot I'd seen him donkbet TPTK in a 4way pot when OOP (1 player all in preflop on like 7bb), the turn went check/check and he check/called the river. The board was pretty dry and he should have bet the river for value. Although his hand strength is entirely different in this hand surely it is a good indicator that he won't bet/raise for value without strong holdings, even he will recognise his hand strength isn't great against my calling range as at best we're chopping.

His range could be A8+ QT+, but then again I really don't think he would bet a Q.

Also there is around 130bb's left to play in my stack and if I call he's going to be betting leving me guessing again.

Is it okay to fold here even though he will have some Q's in his range? We don't know if he'll check back a Q OTR so just cut our losses now?

Would I have been better, check/calling the turn bet/folding most rivers?

Sorry for the wall of text.

Thanks



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Wed May 22, 2013, 10:44 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Hi Oli,

Live game, great!

First, I don't think this is a good spot to raise preflop. Think about it, your reasons were "strong TAG image" and "willing to give action with top pair"... The TAG image implies fold equity but your raise is not going to fold the min-raiser or the caller, and the straddler will figure this and being loose will often call as well, which leaves us in a 4 way bloated pot OOP with a weak hand. Although I like the idea of the min-raiser and caller playing fit or fold, so we can take it down with a c-bet a lot vs. one of them, if we have to fade both of them fitting plus a wide range in the straddler, fold equity is still reduced and raising it up becomes spewy. Second, fishy live players are notorious for calling too often, although it sounds like your read on 2 of these guys is that's not totally the case with them. But generally we don't need to build pots pre because they allow us to build them post when we make a hand, and they're not great bluffing targets often because of this trait.

I would bet this flop... the point in betting is that with 2 aces on the board they won't believe we have one, so we will get called by QJ/QT as well as broadway draws peeling, and it's better to get value from them than give them a free card. Likewise small pocket pairs like 44, they are probably not putting any money in on later streets unless they actually hit a 4 and suck out on us, so if we bet now and they fold that's fine as they don't get to realize their equity of 2 outting us.

Turn, as played I would check again. It seems hard to get called by worse hands now (you asked if TT would even call, that is AAQQ with a T kicker, doubt it would call if you even sneezed at your chips, but it might bet as a bluff if you check). If we're behind to an ace we have 1 out, if we're ahead most of their ranges are drawing dead. Since we checked the flop, now we actually want their hands like 44 to get a free river card, maybe they'll spike a 4 and then we can get paid. Or their KJ/KT/JT can get there on the river and pay us off.

So we bet, and tight guy fiddles with his chips then lavishly raises. Tight guy hollywood-raising the turn here always has an ace, nh sir, easy fold imo.


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Wed May 22, 2013 at 10:47 PM..
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 10:04 AM
(#3)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the response. I have few more questions though.

I understand that calling is probably the best option here due to the reasons you stated, however I was wondering if your opinion would differ were we in position. If we were in the CO or OTB then would you make a value raise to isolate?

In genereal I was wondering how you approach limped/min-raised pots in live games. As you stated the type of player that live games attract often allow us to build the pot postflop as we can bet a large % of the pot and they will call with nearly there entire range regardless of bet size. Does this incline you to isolate less with marginal holdings such as KT/KJ/KQo?

In pots with multiple callers already in, I'm a little unsure what to do with these hands. I don't like calling as it will ultimately lead to a pot with at least 6 players in.If I do call I can play aggressively when I hit and can build a big pot when I have a hand. When I miss I can fold for a small loss. Would this strategy be better than isolating and cbetting into 1-3 callers when I miss, as when I get called after cbetting I will often have to give up unless I hit the turn or river.

I can definately see the value in betting the flop now, I guess at the time even I was a little scared of the two A's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Turn, as played I would check again. It seems hard to get called by worse hands now (you asked if TT would even call, that is AAQQ with a T kicker, doubt it would call if you even sneezed at your chips, but it might bet as a bluff if you check). If we're behind to an ace we have 1 out, if we're ahead most of their ranges are drawing dead. Since we checked the flop, now we actually want their hands like 44 to get a free river card, maybe they'll spike a 4 and then we can get paid. Or their KJ/KT/JT can get there on the river and pay us off.

So we bet, and tight guy fiddles with his chips then lavishly raises. Tight guy hollywood-raising the turn here always has an ace, nh sir, easy fold imo.
Don't know what I was thinking OTT, expecting TT to call.

Also if we check the turn and villain bets we call right? What do we then do on a blank river. Check and call again as he might bluff missed draws?

Thanks again

Oli


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Thu May 23, 2013, 02:33 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
In position it's better, I could go either way, probably depending on the likelihood of isolating or not. What inclines me to isolate less, is the realism of that goal being achieved... live or online. Low stake live games aren't always conducive to isolating
And c-betting air into 3+ players is a pretty major spew though, try not to do that too much.


Quote:
Also if we check the turn and villain bets we call right? What do we then do on a blank river. Check and call again as he might bluff missed draws?
Check and fold against this guy, he's not bluffing the river.


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Thu May 23, 2013, 06:31 PM
(#5)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Are live games really that soft compared to those played online?
I am 100% sure that right now I would be a losing player at 100NL but have no experience with live poker at all
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 06:49 PM
(#6)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Live games are way easier than online, there is no difference in play between the 1/1 and 1/2 game I play in currently. They both play extremely passively and the few regulars that play, play so transparently it's easy to make correct decisions vs them. Most players can't lay down draws regardless of your bet size and will then bluff really small on the river when they miss. Also it's not rare to see stacks go in over 3 streets and the player will have TPNK. :S

Live is also much more fun than online imo due to the personalities and table chat, however be warned it unbelievably sloooowwwwwwwwwwww............


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Thu May 23, 2013, 06:51 PM
(#7)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
I started a thread earlier discussing playing limped pots in low stakes live games.

Trust me there's a lot of limping Tommy


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