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3betting QQ preflop.

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3betting QQ preflop. - Thu May 23, 2013, 08:11 AM
(#1)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
Is it more profitable not to 3bet QQ but get to postflop and extract value, given villain range is pockets and broadway cards and our stacks are 100bb.

Villain folds most of the broadways and pockets anyways and if I get it in preflop I usually go against the AK,QQ+, only 40% equity for me.

Argument against this was that dead money in the pot compensate low equity for me. But then if I 3bet QQ against the range ( 22+,KJ+,AJ+ )where is my profit coming from?

Last edited by morduk666; Thu May 23, 2013 at 08:13 AM..
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 09:29 AM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I dont see the point in 3 betting QQ because if you get 4bet you either fold or call and miss the flop and fold, your better off calling a 3bet with QQ or calling the standard raise preflop because if you was lucky enough to call 3x from a UTG raise who had AA and you flop a set your taking his stack anyway.
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 11:40 AM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Depends if you're talking 6-max or full ring, and your play should also vary according to position, player tendencies and stack sizes.
There's no "one size fits all" I'm afraid, but in 6-max 2NL, I'm mostly 3-betting and stacking off with QQ, because villains are stacking off with much worse. (I've seen TAGs stack off 44 for 100bb, and maniacs call shoves with J7).
If you have a tracker, then go to the "Hole cards" report and look at your bb/100 number for QQ. Now add the filter "Did 3-bet = true". I'd be very surprised if your winrate isn't much higher when you 3-bet queens.

By the way, when I 3-bet with QQ, my plan is to never fold to a 4-bet. I'm always 5-bet jamming for the win.

I've been running good with QQ and my sample size is too small to be "trusted", but it seems almost criminal to not 3-bet QQ against most of the 6-max 2NL player pool. :/


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Thu May 23, 2013, 01:09 PM
(#4)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I've tried that line Arty and i always get destroyed same for JJ, if im stacking off preflop with no reads you know i got KK or AA.

If i got reads that your a maniac il stack off JJ like i did earlier and the villain rivered a straight but thats fine because il still make money out of him the next time we meet.

I stacked off ATs on the BB vs a maniac on the sb and he had AK unluckily for him i sucked out lol.
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 02:24 PM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
In zoom games, the stack off ranges might be a bit tighter (KK+) especially 250bb deep, but on regular tables reads are easier to come by and stacks are often much shorter.
I'd really like to see your stats though if you run the 3-bet filter. 3-betting in general is incredibly profitable, which is why guys like Sandtrap and Roland GTX crushed 2NL and 5NL. They didn't flat call with QQ very often, I can assure you.


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Thu May 23, 2013, 03:48 PM
(#6)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
My 3bet stat is 3.10
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 03:55 PM
(#7)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
I know your 3-bet is around 3%, which represents a solid value range. In 6-max, you'll make more money by 3-betting 5-6% of the time. But I meant set up a filter "3-bet=true" and check your winrate with various hands. QQ-AA are monster hands that benefit from low stack-to-pot ratios. You should be 3-betting QQ almost as often as you 3-bet KK+, because it makes more money that way.


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Thu May 23, 2013, 05:14 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I have no idea how you set up a filter lol but i tried 3 betting QQ and ended up all in 4 times in a row with QQ before and lost every time.

My QQ only wins 78% of the time im fairly sure in zoom if i managed to get all in with QQ id run into kings or aces and il suck out every now and again.
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 05:48 PM
(#9)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
In 6-max 2NL, I've only been all with QQ four times so far, but I've been ahead every time and managed to hold each time. (Villains showed up with AQ, AK, A3s and 44).

This tiny sample is almost meaningless, but I hope the trend continues, because all in pre with QQ I'm winning at 7225bb/100
Imagine if you could win 72 buy-ins every 100 hands!

FWIW, I've also stacked off AK and AQ a couple of times and got it in good too, but I've not been so lucky when stacking off against very short stacks with hands like AJ.

In my last two sessions I got a bit careless and decided to jam TT and AJ when I got 4-bet by "maniacs". Both times they had the aces.


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Thu May 23, 2013, 06:17 PM
(#10)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
I dont see the point in 3 betting QQ because if you get 4bet you either fold or call and miss the flop and fold, your better off calling a 3bet with QQ or calling the standard raise preflop because if you was lucky enough to call 3x from a UTG raise who had AA and you flop a set your taking his stack anyway.
Yeah, usually I never 3bet UTG. Go into setmining mode against NITS.

Quote:
Depends if you're talking 6-max or full ring, and your play should also vary according to position, player tendencies and stack sizes.
There's no "one size fits all" I'm afraid, but in 6-max 2NL, I'm mostly 3-betting and stacking off with QQ, because villains are stacking off with much worse. (I've seen TAGs stack off 44 for 100bb, and maniacs call shoves with J7).
If you have a tracker, then go to the "Hole cards" report and look at your bb/100 number for QQ. Now add the filter "Did 3-bet = true". I'd be very surprised if your winrate isn't much higher when you 3-bet queens.

By the way, when I 3-bet with QQ, my plan is to never fold to a 4-bet. I'm always 5-bet jamming for the win.

I've been running good with QQ and my sample size is too small to be "trusted", but it seems almost criminal to not 3-bet QQ against most of the 6-max 2NL player pool. :/
Villains are doing crazy things at NL2 If someone open shoves especially if they have less then 100bb I am going allin more lightly. It depends.. Gets kinda awkward when I'm OOP and we both ~200bb deep. From the graphs below it seems that 3betting QQ should net more profit than playing them passively. Should I play them aggressively too at NL5 against unkowns?




When 3betting QQ:



Without 3betting QQ(NOT (Raised Preflop Any 3Bet)) in PT4:


Last edited by morduk666; Thu May 23, 2013 at 06:43 PM..
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 06:37 PM
(#11)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Thanks for running the filters and posting the graphs. Your sample size is much larger than mine.

I'm quite surprised that you've been losing money at showdown (the blueline) when you've 3-bet, but it's evident that you've run way below EV. (Your EV adjusted winnings figure is $10, but your actual profit was only $4. I would presume this is partly because villains have been winning rather more flips with AK than is expected, and you've rarely sucked out if you got it in bad). With "average luck", the blueline would have been +$1.)

I would generally play the same way at 5NL, but be more careful against villains that are known to be nits, as they will only give you action with monsters. Against nitty types, flatting is preferable almost always.


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Thu May 23, 2013, 06:44 PM
(#12)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Thanks for running the filters and posting the graphs. Your sample size is much larger than mine.

I'm quite surprised that you've been losing money at showdown (the blueline) when you've 3-bet, but it's evident that you've run way below EV. (Your EV adjusted winnings figure is $10, but your actual profit was only $4. I would presume this is partly because villains have been winning rather more flips with AK than is expected, and you've rarely sucked out if you got it in bad). With "average luck", the blueline would have been +$1.)

I would generally play the same way at 5NL, but be more careful against villains that are known to be nits, as they will only give you action with monsters. Against nitty types, flatting is preferable almost always.
Thanks for the advice

Last edited by morduk666; Thu May 23, 2013 at 06:49 PM..
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 06:47 PM
(#13)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I just decided to give NL5 ago again and lost $3

My 1st losing hand i had KK preflop i open for 3x i get a caller the board came out like 836 and i bet 2/3 of the pot he then 3bets i call and check the turn he then bets so i guess he either had a set or he figured my UTG raise preflop was something like AK AQ AA QQ KK JJ TT and so on and i think he might of thought with our $5 stacks he could rep a set, maybe i dont know i folded anyway.

Then i get QQ i 3bet preflop i get a caller its the same again the flop is a low board and i near enough pot it and he ships all in and i just call it it was for $2 he had a short stack, anyway he flips over 77 and rivers a set.

Every time i go up to 5nl i get coolered i can think of 4 hands where i lost like $15 in total at 5NL where i been rivered.

I got a $100 roll now im gonna make another $50 and play 5 nl and not come back down unless i lose $50 because its no good taking shots getting coolered going back to 2nl building your roll and taking another shot at 5nl and getting coolered again .

Last edited by mike2198; Thu May 23, 2013 at 06:51 PM..
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 07:15 PM
(#14)
morduk666's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
My 1st losing hand i had KK preflop i open for 3x i get a caller the board came out like 836 and i bet 2/3 of the pot he then 3bets i call and check the turn he then bets so i guess he either had a set or he figured my UTG raise preflop was something like AK AQ AA QQ KK JJ TT and so on and i think he might of thought with our $5 stacks he could rep a set, maybe i dont know i folded anyway.
I'd fold in UTG if villain reraises my c-bet, altough you could level this out: He knows that your range is tight, and low board does not connect with it at all, so he raises your c-bet representing a set or trying to fold out your broadways. But still, given the nitty action in that level and an option that he has the perfect spot to setmine it's a fold most of the time,except if stacksize is really low or there are some good reads in my opinion.

Last edited by morduk666; Thu May 23, 2013 at 07:22 PM..
 
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Thu May 23, 2013, 09:48 PM
(#15)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
I wouldn't really give random 5NL players the ability to "rep" a set, Mike. If you bet 2/3 pot on 863 and get raised, villain probably has a set (although on that flop he can also have QQ-99). When I have KK, and my pre-flop raise gets called, I'll automatically make a plan. If the caller is a nit, then I'm bet-folding the flop. If he's more aggro, I'm more likely to 3-bet the flop and stack off.

FWIW, I think you're betting too big with your overpairs OOP on ragged boards. What hands are calling big bets on ragged flops? If you're only getting action from sets, then you should bet smaller (60% of pot or so), so you can get away cheaply when you get raised.
It's especially true when villain is a short-stack. You don't need to bet big to get them committed.

Save your BIG bets for when you have a big hand and expect to get called by worse, especially when stacks are deep. On a board of JT7tt, you need to bet big, because there are lots of draws. On a 752, it's hard to get action from many worse hands, so betting smaller is appropriate.

The QQ vs 77 is a bad beat. Shorties will give you a lot of money when they stack off with underpairs, but you'll suck out sometimes yourself. I had a horrendous spot today when a nit opened in EP. I had 66 in the blinds. Flop came something like J86, so I made a pot-sized check-raise with my set. Villain called, and I was thinking "please have an overpair or AJ". Turn was a blank and I bet 80% of pot, to set up the value-shove on the river. River comes an ace. I ship in my last 50bb praying villain has exactly AJ. He snap calls and shows... pocket aces.
Set over set is tough to take at the best of times. When it's a 2-outer on the river, you kind of have to laugh. 96% of the time, I'm winning his stack after he calls the turn.


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Fri May 24, 2013, 01:04 PM
(#16)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Ive got over coolers now, i just dont like it whne i take a shot at 5nl and i get people sucking out or the time and i have to go back to 2nl.

Im not messing around with 5nl no more till my bankroll is big enough because i can tell the players are some what better and i know il probably lose money before i adjust, i can tell i wont get away with half of the move i pull at 2nl its like that KK hand my bet was so big on the flop because i wanted to stack off until he raised repping better.

Im not sure if he made a move on me but if i had a big enough roll i would of stacked off just to see what there capable of at 5nl but for him to put $2 in on the turn he must of had a set or maybe a over pair i beat i dont know but i know im gonna have to be more aggressive and start raising alot more.
 

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