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Folding KK pre-flop?

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Folding KK pre-flop? - Mon May 27, 2013, 10:22 AM
(#1)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I'm still waiting for Tylers class on the occasions he folded KK pre-flop to come around so I want to post this here to see what current thinking is.

I'm told often that there is nothing wrong at all with getting KK in pre because people can get carried away with AK/QQ etc.

If you are pretty confident though that the person has AA are we not spewing by going with it? To an extent I might as well have 22 as KK.

The guy in this hand is a Zoom reg with sensible stats 15/12 over 254 hands. I'm guessing that he does what most good Zoom regs do and calls a 3bet with QQ for a pretty powerful set-mine.



So, can I fold? I didnt think he had anything other than AA.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Mon May 27, 2013 at 10:25 AM..
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 11:14 AM
(#2)
Mickl84's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8
I never fold KK pre at 2NL Zoom. Yeah 4 bets from some players are just as likley to be QQ, AK, JJ as AA. If you know he only 4 bets AA then its probably a fold. I wouldnt have folded to a villain with only 250 hands though.
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 12:07 PM
(#3)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
250 hands is too small for a decent read, as said above. So let's look at equity versus a few ranges:

vs AA -- 18% (~5:1)
vs KK+ -- 22% (~4:1)
vs QQ+ -- even (1:1)
vs KK+, AKs -- 32% (2:1)

You're getting ~3:2 odds, about 40% equity, in return. So the only range you are ahead of is QQ+ or worse. In zoom your can wait for a better situation, imnsho.

To paraphrase Will Rogers: Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions.
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 01:32 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I'm not folding KK for 100bb here, but then I probably wouldn't have 3-bet in the first place.
Villain can do this with QQ/AK or worse and you have 57% equity against that range, plus some padding from the dead money. I also disagree with "most good Zoom regs... call a 3bet with QQ for a pretty powerful set-mine".

Villain does not have the right odds to go set-mining. Calling a 3-bet OOP with QQ is spew. If I was villain and I had QQ, I would look at your stats. Since you're pretty nitty, I'd fold QQ, but I'd 4-bet QQ and AK if you were more aggro. This was explained in my blog the other day.
If villain is aware of your tendencies (most zoom regs aren't) then he should always have KK+ in this spot, but I wouldn't give him that much credit.

Against a TAG's UTG open, I'd actually flat with KK to keep his range as wide as possible. I want him to think hands like TT and JJ are good. By 3-betting, you manipulate his range to hands that have you in much worse shape. He'll fold JJ/TT/AQs and sometimes AK too.
On this particular board, I'd still be going broke if I station it to the river with my overpair, but in the long run, you'd make money when he c-bets AK/QQ and shuts down when you call.


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Mon May 27, 2013 at 01:38 PM..
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 02:46 PM
(#5)
Rogger1999's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 489
I would never fold KK preflop, never ever
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 03:17 PM
(#6)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
his UTG raise of 4bb shows strength but this is just a cooler im my opinion there is no way i can escape here (unless hes a super nit) as he could have so easily had QQ just as easily and possibly AK

im no expert though but i am talking from my 2NL experience

dont sweat it as @ other times you will have the AA and the other poor guy/gal happens to have KK
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 03:31 PM
(#7)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
If they are a weak TAG, a 4-bet is nothing but AA almost every time..

Is 4x their usual opening bet? If not, a weak player is usually at the top of their range.

Everything in poker is situation dependent. And some situations, albeit rarely, call for folding KK pre on deep money. The questions is "Is this one of those rare situations?"

I'll give you the answer: "It depends."
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 04:29 PM
(#8)
herbalerv's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 217
SilverStar
This is the kind of spot where I fold Kings

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...951_EF4555F92D

Just reeeks of aces.
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 05:37 PM
(#9)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
I just checked my stats. I have 89 hands from this year where I got all in with KK preflop. I ran into AA 33 times.

In total I won 51% of these 89 hands and am slightly +ev and have won $43. For a comparison, with AA I have gotten all in preflop 93 times. Have won 84% of the hands and have won $991 bucks!

On a regular table, I doubt Im ever folding KK.

On Zoom, I have never folded KK. However, I have been considering folding if several conditions are in place for example both the villain and myself are very deep stacked AND Im playing at 25NL or higher AND the villain is in EP AND is a good reg.

Roland GTX
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 06:10 PM
(#10)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I also disagree with "most good Zoom regs... call a 3bet with QQ for a pretty powerful set-mine".
I constructed that part of my initial post really badly it seems.

While I was posting about the hand I played this morning I wasnt necessarily talking about calling with QQ in this one hand and the way it played out with position etc. I should have taken more care when I was wording the post.

I guess I have been on the wrong end of KKvAA battles recently and it just got me to thinking that where I am as close to being certain as I can be that someone has AA can I fold my KK?

I probably shouldn't even have included the hand I did as it clouded the issue.

If someone is tight and takes the 4bet/5bet shove action and I have KK can I fold? In the last week or two I have got it in with KK pre and the only time I wasnt behind was when I came up against KK and won the freeroll for a flush.

I've actually got AA in against much worse hands than KK strangely enough including a memorable hand yesterday where I had a 3way all-in pre against 65s and TT
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 06:22 PM
(#11)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Having looked at my database I got it in against AA 8 out of 24 times. 7 of those 8 times were against TAG players who raised from early position. Which actually does fit the same description of the hand I posted above.

If I am not supposed to re-raise against raises from EP TAG's then do I call flop, fold turn to continued aggression? (I know it can depend on exact circumstances sometimes). If someone squeezes behind, and the original raiser (Who in these cases I suspect has AA) moves all-in, can I fold then?

I'm just trying to cut out large lsong pots like this from my game where possible as I am in profit, but know I am making mistakes, and I could be further in profit if I can plug these leaks.
 
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Mon May 27, 2013, 06:34 PM
(#12)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
If I am not supposed to re-raise against raises from EP TAG's then do I call flop, fold turn to continued aggression? (I know it can depend on exact circumstances sometimes). If someone squeezes behind, and the original raiser (Who in these cases I suspect has AA) moves all-in, can I fold then?
If you call and it's heads up, then it depends on board texture. On this particular board, if villain bets flop and turn, you might be able to lay it down, because the only hand you beat is QQ (JJ and TT got there), but if the board is all low cards, you can station it to the river, as QQ-TT will usually keep betting, and they won't know what the hell hit them when you show up with KK at showdown.

If there's a squeeze, and UTG shoves, he pretty much has to have aces unless he's crazy, so you can get out of the way and only paid 3 or 4bb to find out you were behind.

This is how you win the Cooler battle. When you have AA UTG, villains will always stack off KK, but when you have KK and villain has AA, you won't always lose your stack.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue May 28, 2013, 12:41 PM
(#13)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I'm not folding KK for 100bb here, but then I probably wouldn't have 3-bet in the first place.

If you dont 3bet your KK there Arty what do you do when UTG has opened TT and hits his set?

I 3bet my KK all the time and i win most of the time the trouble is i never get them all in pre to often i guess i could try that line but then you could be losing to a set.
 
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Tue May 28, 2013, 12:47 PM
(#14)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
If you dont 3bet your KK there Arty what do you do when UTG has opened TT and hits his set?
I usually lose most of my stack (depending on stack depth to start the hand). He'll only flop a set about 12% of the time, though, and sometimes I'll also have a set.
I just look at this way: If villain has TT and I have KK, I will win the hand more than 80% of the time. I'd rather win a big pot 80% of the time, than win the 4bb pot pre-flop 96% of the time.


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Tue May 28, 2013 at 12:50 PM..
 
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Tue May 28, 2013, 12:53 PM
(#15)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Yeah thats a good answer il have to try this line out, so if you had no reads on villain when do you decide its a good time to 3bet and if you opened UTG and the cutoff 3betted would you 4bet all in?
 
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Tue May 28, 2013, 02:17 PM
(#16)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
In a full ring game against a TAG, nit, or an unknown, I'd usually just flat KK if he raises UTG. I'm usually only 3-betting if I'm pretty sure I can get called by worse, i.e. villain is a LAGfish with no positional awareness.

If I open with KK UTG and the CO 3-bets, I'm usually committing to stack off, because villains will show up with AK stupidly often. And I mean stupidly. (With AK, they should be flatting vs UTG 100% of the time).
The only time I wouldn't 4-bet kings is if villain is clearly a supernit or whale with a 3-bet% of less than 2%, because he'll have aces. I don't recall ever folding KK to a 3-bet at 2NL, but I could do it if I was incredibly certain I'm beat, and I don't have the odds to set-mine. (Set-mining with kings always sounds ridiculous to me, but sometimes that's your only option).

I wouldn't 4-bet all in, by the way. I'd 4-bet to around 22bb, expecting villain to shove with most of his range. If he just calls the 4-bet in position, his hand is pretty face up as QQ-JJ/AK.

In 6-max games, where ranges are wider, I'm nearly always 3-betting KK for value, although I did just flat KK vs UTG in my latest session. Weirdly, villain didn't c-bet a Qxx flop, and check-folded the turn, so I guess he had AK or an underpair and I didn't even get a token c-bet out of him.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue May 28, 2013, 02:32 PM
(#17)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I'm posting this hand for what is likely some easy analysis in the appropriate forum but I thought I would cross post it here too seeing as it is relevant. Weak/small open raise from a relative unknown who in the small number of hands I have has played most of them. Frequent three bettor (Over 148) 3bets standard amount. Guy who has never 3bet across 23 hands (Small amount I know) 4bets to a nice size.

Given I go broke so often with KK to early position raises, I am not raising this, and elect to call. Not as a set mine per se but because I have second best starting hand and guy could have got carried away with AK not expecting to get 2 callers. Guy continues. I fold. I feel this was a correct fold given the action from the 4bettor.



I might be wrong to play it this way but losing 16bb with KK is preferable than losing 100bb+.

I got stacks in with KK and AA and won both hands at other points for a nice session. Took full stacks both times. http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...892_910D260A07

Opinions welcome.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Tue May 28, 2013 at 03:05 PM..
 
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Tue May 28, 2013, 04:14 PM
(#18)
herbalerv's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 217
SilverStar
he's going to c-bet like so much of the time though so if your planning to fold surely its preferable to do so pre flop?
 
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Tue May 28, 2013, 04:47 PM
(#19)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbalerv View Post
he's going to c-bet like so much of the time though so if your planning to fold surely its preferable to do so pre flop?
Yeah, he does cbet a lot of the time, but maybe he misses the board and decides not to in a multiway pot.

I know it will probably be looked at as spew but it was as an unusual a scenario as I have been hit with in recent times. A 4bet ahead of me when I am sitting in the BB with KK.
 
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Thu May 30, 2013, 07:47 AM
(#20)
holdemace486's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,760
Interesting KK hand.


To be honest by what you say , you sound a bit result orientated over kings.


I personally would have played this hand differently.

If I was playing at my best ability, on a cash table, I could easily fold KK pre-flop, read dependable.



I like your flat call pre-flop to the aggressor, the flop comes 22q, the opp c-bets into my KK, with a Q high board.

The opps bet hardly looked the strongest bet. In this situation I am crossing my fingers, shoving over the top.


QQ or AA is just unlucky to run into to. The probabilities are slim, so I would have a shot at taking the pot.

Hopefully the opp shows AQ, something like that.

If not tough, next time they would likely to have aq.....
 

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