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5nl: Turning our hand into a bluff

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5nl: Turning our hand into a bluff - Wed Jun 05, 2013, 08:44 AM
(#1)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Hey guys,

Interesting pot came up against a reggish opponent who 3b a bit too much from the blinds. (stats: v:25 pfr: 22 3b:9). He also had a high double barrel % over 500 or so hands.



I think when he checks the ace he's giving up a tonne here. I don't think he'd expect us to bluff at it, and given we flat his 3b we should have a pretty strong perceived range.

He almost always has TT/QQ/KK

Thoughts?

Last edited by birdayy; Wed Jun 05, 2013 at 09:10 AM..
 
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Wed Jun 05, 2013, 03:54 PM
(#2)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Birdayy,

I think calling preflop here could be a mistake. I could be totally wrong, but it's okay we'll get to see what the trainers have to say and we'll learn

Let me explain myself.
1. We are 100bb effective; I think when we are deeper we can consider calling the 3bet because when we play a low-medium SC we are not playing for one pair hand but for straight potential and FD equity which is difficult to realize with 100bb stacks in a 3bet pot. I would call here with high SCs instead because we can count on the one pair hand that we make. So hands like ATs-JTs, KQs, QJs.

2. This guy is a light 3bettor; which means he will have a lot of trash in his 3betting range especially when he combats steals. Which means that it will be so hard to get paid off when we do hit a 2pair/straight/flush because his preflop holding was marginal in the first place and he will not pay us off often enough to make our call profitable. Especially that our opponent is reggish like you say. I'd prefer to have someone with a lower 3bet frequency say 5% who overplays his TP hands since it will be much easier to stack him.

As played, I like the call OTF but I think a fold OTT should be in order. OTR, I think sometimes you will win when you check back since his 3betting range is wide enough to have him miss entirely. The turn is a good card for him to barrel again as it's a broadway or he might have picked up a diamond draw - then I suppose calling here too is not too bad in this case. Othertimes, he might have hit his J and checking back river will lose you the hand. So shoving might get a fold from a J (sometime) But what story are you telling? What Ax would flat a 3bet, call flop and turn? I think AdKd/AdQd/AJ or a set of 77 make the only sense.
A lot of guessing here against an aggressive player with the type of hand we have

Last edited by geoVARTA; Wed Jun 05, 2013 at 03:56 PM..
 
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Thu Jun 06, 2013, 10:04 AM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi birdayy,

I think your read is spot on that the villain generally has a showdown value hand like TT/QQ/KK here. That said, I'm not sure he's giving up on the ace just because he checked.

You say he's "reggish" (what does that mean, he's not a reg? Or he's a reg but losing player?), so let's assume he's ranging you. I'll put myself in his shoes... I would be ranging you on hands like 55/66/88/99 a lot here. If I checked the river with QQ, it would be because I don't think I can get a 3rd street of value from those hands on this board run out. But I would call a shove now, because I see no way a solid player (I have 500 hands on you too so assume I'm looking at solid stats) can get to the river with an ace in their hand. Basically the only way is if you peeled the flop light with AJ. All weaker aces (gut shots or pairs etc with ace kicker), while they might float the flop even for a large c-bet, should have been dissuaded by my large turn bet and released then. I don't know how common it is for players at 5nl to turn hands of this genre into a bluff (and your 87 is in the same hand strength category as those pocket pairs), but I regularly see solid players who like to make aggressive post flop moves flipping up 66 here all the time, double floating their pair+gut shot and then thinking they can get me off QQ with a river shove when I check the ace or king river. In short, I think it's a good spot for the move vs. a decent but unsophisticated player (maybe lacking experience, or playing more straight forward due to mass multi-tabling and not having time to think it through). And a "reggish" 5nl player might fit this bill. But target this move well, as a strong player will call with even TT here for the reasons above, and a weak player will call just to see how unlucky they got or because they have a pair, so both would pick this off.


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Thu Jun 06, 2013, 10:11 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Hi Birdayy,

I think calling preflop here could be a mistake. I could be totally wrong, but it's okay we'll get to see what the trainers have to say and we'll learn

Let me explain myself.
1. We are 100bb effective; I think when we are deeper we can consider calling the 3bet because when we play a low-medium SC we are not playing for one pair hand but for straight potential and FD equity which is difficult to realize with 100bb stacks in a 3bet pot. I would call here with high SCs instead because we can count on the one pair hand that we make. So hands like ATs-JTs, KQs, QJs.

2. This guy is a light 3bettor; which means he will have a lot of trash in his 3betting range especially when he combats steals. Which means that it will be so hard to get paid off when we do hit a 2pair/straight/flush because his preflop holding was marginal in the first place and he will not pay us off often enough to make our call profitable. Especially that our opponent is reggish like you say. I'd prefer to have someone with a lower 3bet frequency say 5% who overplays his TP hands since it will be much easier to stack him.

As played, I like the call OTF but I think a fold OTT should be in order. OTR, I think sometimes you will win when you check back since his 3betting range is wide enough to have him miss entirely. The turn is a good card for him to barrel again as it's a broadway or he might have picked up a diamond draw - then I suppose calling here too is not too bad in this case. Othertimes, he might have hit his J and checking back river will lose you the hand. So shoving might get a fold from a J (sometime) But what story are you telling? What Ax would flat a 3bet, call flop and turn? I think AdKd/AdQd/AJ or a set of 77 make the only sense.
A lot of guessing here against an aggressive player with the type of hand we have
I agree with geo here, this guy might not be a good target to defend our steal raise by calling. While I don't think we can call profitably, if he's really out of line 3-betting button opens I think we can 4b/fold profitably as we'll now get tons of folds immediately, and if he flats a smallish 4b his range does not play well OOP without initiative... and we have a disguised holding that hits hard on a lot of flop textures that looks bad for our perceived range.


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Thu Jun 06, 2013, 12:04 PM
(#5)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Some good points made.

I don't like the 4b with hands like these because I feel we can play them well post flop. I prefer 4betting a resteal with blockers such as KJ, KQ etc.

By reggish i mean the standard tag at 5nl. Probably un-creative and a good candidate for what you said in your post Dave
 
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Thu Jun 06, 2013, 03:07 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
I don't like the 4b with hands like these because I feel we can play them well post flop.
I agree, and yet we have exhibit A... I don't think calling 2 largely sized barrels was the play here. If he checked a street, or bet smaller, we're in better business continuing.

But I totally agree that we can sometimes profitably call with hands like this. Like geo, I just don't feel this is the spot. I'm not saying always 4b here, but 4-betting is I suspect a better EV line than flatting vs this villain in this spot... it may still be -EV, but I'm pretty sure we are losing money long term on these flats vs non-nit and non-spewprone villains.

It's actually a great hand to discuss and one I can personally relate to, as I find when I defend my steal raise with this type of hand, I tend to get too sticky when I flop top pair and the evidence comes in that I'm beat. So I'm not saying I could always find the turn fold, but I think we should, it's one of my leaks.


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