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25NL - AA facing shove on empty board. Call?

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25NL - AA facing shove on empty board. Call? - Fri Jun 07, 2013, 03:01 AM
(#1)
Kilusonak's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 6
Hello everyone,

Has been in this hand lately and it was very tough decision for me. I'm still don't know whether I played it right or not, so I would like to hear your opinion.

My image at the table is tight and villain has been caught calling 3 bets with facecards off and connectors off as well as suited not connected cards. No stats on him.

 
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Fri Jun 07, 2013, 05:31 AM
(#2)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi again Kilusonak,

I'm definitely calling here, I don't see too many hands that have us beat that did not raise turn. There are more busted draws in his range I think that makes the river check/call a good way to get him bluff the rest of his stack that would otherwise fold to a bet.
 
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Fri Jun 07, 2013, 07:53 AM
(#3)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Hi

Since 3 people are sitting out, the table is effectively 6 handed and everyone should therefore play looser (in theory) so I am going to approach this situation just like you were sitting at a 6max table.

I am used to play this board texture at 10NL with just simply bet bet shove line because:
1) If you play your hand this aggressively people will put you on missed AK a lot figuring you only bet bet shove your very strong hands (sets in this case) and complete bluffs. Since you just make a standard cbet followed by a very weak turn bet and a check OTR i assume you play exactly this way which I think is very easily exploitable in the long run
2) If you employ an aggressive 3bet and iso raise strategy from the blinds you should definitely have some bluffs in your range when you play aggressively postflop. Hands like AQ,AK,KQ all picked up a GS OTT so they might try to go for a 3 street bluff sometimes, any hand that picked up a FD will bluff and 78 might sometimes go for 3 streets as well. A lot of villains will call you light OTF and OTT if they picked up a draw themselves so it might be worth trying to bluff them off their hand (if you had some history or stats of course)
3) You can get value from other 2 pair hands like JT,AT,AJ or sometimes even overpairs like QQ or KK which decided to get creative and slowplay (after all you have the best 2 pair hand possible)
4) Limping in late position is really bad and bad players tend to pay off even lighter

The value of checking the river is in letting the villain bluff with missed draws so i do not think that readless it is a good idea to do anything but call. Of course you can be behind but to make the call you only need to be right 35% of the time anyway. Since you played your hand so weakly I do not think you should ever be folding here as your line might have induced quite a few bluffs (with my assumption being that 25NL villains are more than capable of bluffing here)
 
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Fri Jun 07, 2013, 01:11 PM
(#4)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Part of the reason for checking the river is to allow the villain to do this with bluffs or value pwning themselves with (altho I think this would raise the turn) so I am calling. It is not autocall on any river but the fact there may be missed draws and we counterfeit means I am happier than in other situations.
 
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Fri Jun 07, 2013, 01:24 PM
(#5)
Kilusonak's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 6
Thank you guys for your opinions, this is appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGun369 View Post
Since you played your hand so weakly I do not think you should ever be folding here as your line might have induced quite a few bluffs
Tommy, you mean played weakly by the size of the bet on the turn? Or both, flop and turn? What would be your bet size/s?
 
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Fri Jun 07, 2013, 08:31 PM
(#6)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilusonak View Post
Tommy, you mean played weakly by the size of the bet on the turn? Or both, flop and turn? What would be your bet size/s?
A cbet on this flop does not necessarily mean you have a big hand as you should be cbetting this board
with a wide range of hands you iso raise pre (obviously the more stationy the villain is the tighter your cbetting range should be). If you follow it up by about a 50% bet OTT with a weird stack behind it just looks so much like a pathetic attempt to bluff with AK type of hand and therefore i would not be surprised if you got called there by 77,88,99,78 any T, any 5, any 6, any hand that picked up FD or SD, basically any hand that may now see a nice opportunity to bluff you off your hand OTR if no A hits and you check like you did. Against an aggressive opponent this is a nice size to induce bluff raises or bluff bets OTR so if you choose to make it you almost always have to call the river imo (By betting the turn smaller you give away the impression that you are not committed to your hand and can therefore be potentially bluffed). The problem is that I do not see any reads or stats to recommend a villain specific play like that.

If this is true and you have not copied the wrong text (i think i saw the same description in one of your other hands for analysis for which it was more appropriate): "My image at the table is tight and villain has been caught calling 3 bets with facecards off and connectors off as well as suited not connected cards. No stats on him." then the villain can be considered aggressive and capable of taking advantage of weak plays = call him. Although I have to say that his river shove is pretty scary since he does not need to bet so much to get you off A high, but bad players and especially bad aggressive players make bad plays so I do not think it should change our decision to call the river regardless of his sizing.

My preferred line would be to bet around $1.75 OTF, $5.00 OTT and follow it up by a nearly pot sized river shove. The advantage of betting the turn bigger is that you give away the impression that you are setting up a river shove so it makes it so much more difficult for a villain to make a light call because if he is any good he has to realize that your plan could very well be to shove and so he has to make a commitment decision right there OTT (a big advantage for any bluffs you could possibly have in your range and if you want your bluffs to work you need to play your value hands the same way). I admit that this might be a wrong plan though as I am used to dealing with villains who happily bluff catch and call light in these situation at lower stakes. Your line of bet-bet-check/call might actually be a better default line for 25NL, I do not know.

Last edited by TommyGun369; Fri Jun 07, 2013 at 08:35 PM..
 
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Sun Jun 09, 2013, 05:15 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi kilusonak,

I think surely this is a call given the read you have on villain, but more importantly I think this is a spot we should be betting the river, not checking. Most of his range will be Tx, a few Jx, and pocket pairs, and if we check we are giving him a free showdown. Especially since we can beat JT now, we are leaving too much value on the table not betting.

Check/calling can be good on wet boards when all the draws miss, which others have said, but I'm not really seeing the assertion that there are more busted draws than made hands in his range? The flop is dry, there's very few draws in his range here. 87 is about the only one that calls 2 barrels. Maybe 34 if he's super loose. And all this limp-called pre as well? There are significantly more 1 pair hands in his range on the river than busted draws. Go for value imo.


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Mon Jun 10, 2013, 07:40 AM
(#8)
Kilusonak's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 6
Thanks a lot guys! That's very reassuring to know that generally my play wasn't so bad and most important my call wasn't mindless. My play in this hand was to try to trap the villain on the river. I was hoping for his bet and was hoping to reraise. I checked the river because I put him on something like 89 or 67 and I thought that I will not get anything from him betting the river. His shove however presented a dilemma for me because of 3 diamonds on the board and I began to think about possible flush or set. Reality however is much more twisted and generally things like this make me loosing my faith in humanity and poker itself.

Here is what happened:

 

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