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Thought's please?

Thought's please? - Sat Jun 08, 2013, 07:41 AM
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778

Villian 1 was 42% VPiP 0% PFR 0.6 Agg F
Villian 5 was 17% VPiP 9% PFR 2.4 Agg F
Villian 8 was 27% VPiP 21% PFR 1.1 Agg F

Flop was good for me but I was worried about Ax type hand either being out-kicked or out flopped 2 pair etc.

Turn really suits Villain 1's range as he's playing any Kx type hand. Also if he has a K in this spot he's never betting and always trapping.

River suits QJ which I know any one of the villain's is capable of.

Should I have bet the flop? This is a final table and I'm more or less committing myself with a bet.

Call the river?

I've more info on the hand but this was the info I faced when I folded the river.

Last edited by Ovalman; Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 08:44 AM.. Reason: added Agg F's
Sat Jun 08, 2013, 08:28 AM
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
I'm not sure if you can use their stats for this hand. They are loose, but calling such a big isolate raise they wouldn't with hole of their hand ranges. If you cbet you will be pot committed and maybe shoving the flop is good idea , but it's 4 handed pot very bad scenario for AJ. I think your line isn't mistake, but I would shove on the flop
Sat Jun 08, 2013, 08:29 AM
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I think you were probably ahead there.

Once it checks round on the turn then I think you are good. I think the river bet by villain is just an attempt at a steal. Even if he has AT/A9 he loses to your hand as he has been counterfeited on the turn and your J kicker plays. I dont think he has a K, with position and the action being checked round twice he would surely have tried to build a pot there?

If we call and lose on the river bet then we still have 10bb or so to play with. Not sure whether this is a turbo or not but if it isnt then we still have opportunities to recover.

I also think QJ would have bet before the river.

I'd be calling and not loving it. We have a strong hand but not the nuts.

Any post flop stats held at the time of play?
Sun Jun 09, 2013, 08:51 AM
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I only use Aggression Factor in my HUD for post flop play. I really should add more stats to my HUD but I base most of my decisions on VPiP and PFR. I don't think I need a lot of stats at these levels, just playing it by the book works most of the time. I found this a difficult spot to be in with a lot of factors in play. Stack sizes, VPiP's, number of opponents all come into play.

I also use steal and fold to steal plus I use Notecaddy scatter graph which gives me a lot of info on bet size tells. I can't remember if I used it on this occasion.

I've updated my opening post to include the Agg Factor stat, which probably is key in this hand.
hand - Sun Jun 09, 2013, 10:37 AM
holdupman48's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 34
I think that you played the hand far to passively. I am with Shichi-77 a normal bet will commit you so on the flop I would push. Also a hud is a good tool, but it is only one of many you should have like reading the player and the table to see what there are doing.

7 Time Bracelet Winner

Last edited by holdupman48; Sun Jun 09, 2013 at 10:47 AM..
Sun Jun 09, 2013, 03:26 PM
ChewMe1's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 574
Hi Ovalman

Your raise sizing preflop is good, personally I would make it 1200 in an attempt to keep the pot to stack ratio on the smaller side because we're not very deep but 4x'ing is ok.

This spot happens very often and if I am at a table full of very loose players I probably would prefer to raise our 24 bb stack all in as long as I have the expectation of being called by worse more often than not. I think I would ship it all in 50% of the time and make a standard raise the other 50%

As played we gotta bet this flop. We have a little more than a pot sized bet left and the only hands we are losing to are A9 and AQ.
AK/99/KK would almost always 3bet preflop so I'm not worried about them hands and the likely hood of someone flopping aces and nines are very slim.

I'd love to see a bet of 3k on the flop and then shove in your last 5k in the turn.

Folding to villain 5's river bet is meh, I think that calling and folding are both ok. If I felt that player 5 had a tendency to bluff then I like a call.

The big critical mistake you made here was checking flop imo.

Cheers, Chris.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 07:41 AM
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Thanks Chewme, I didn't want to give my further information until an analyser had reviewed it.

I showed my AJ fold in the hope of information and it worked, Villian 5 showed TT and rivered a set. The hand made sense the way he played it but I was kicking myself for not betting the flop. In hindsight it wasn't such a catastrophic play - I felt sure I was up against another raggy A and the turn and river suited my opponents.

I don't like raising to 1200 in this spot, I think it's too small at this level for opponents to respect it. I'd rather bet harder and charge more for my holdings. I would like a 1400 raise but I was multi tabling and didn't have time to manually set it but I think 1600 is good enough that should have isolated the hand to just 2 players - obviously that didn't work

Surprised TT didn't just shove in this spot. It's a nice squeeze play and I'm probably taking this line if I were in his position.

His hand made sense, his Agg F suggests he's betting any part of the flop so it was my mistake by not CBetting the flop.
Sun Jun 16, 2013, 03:41 PM
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Hey Ovalman whats this note caddy scatter graph?
Sun Jun 16, 2013, 04:11 PM
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Check out Notecaddy and you'll see what I mean.

It's just an extra tool to help your game but if you're not using correct doesn't mean you'll win money.
Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:57 AM
AfredR's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 16
Alright, slightly drunk so take anything i write with a grain of salt. I think this is a 45 man? Correct me if i'm wrong. If your short game is good, shoving seems like a mistake. If not, shoving would not be bad here. Totally unexploitable! However, i do pretty much agree with everything Chris says. I guess what i'm wondering (keep in mind i am sliiiiightly intoxicated)(and feel free to call me...anything) is when you raise and get called...what was your plan before the flop came down?

This might be a wierd question, but (not saying you) i think alot of people will make "a play" like this thinking "I'll just take it down right here" and when it doesn't happen be totally lost on the flop. Though you have been playing a while and probably know what you're doing.

And i'm drunk. And sorry. Yeah.

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