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A lesson for new STT players

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A lesson for new STT players - Sat Jun 08, 2013, 10:23 AM
(#1)
raccy's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 130
I see this kind of action every day. It's the second hand dealt in a $3.50 Hyper-Turbo STT.



So I won a huge pot because the villains played so badly. Had we swapped seats, I might've lost an equally big pot but not because of my bad play. If you can figure out how to play those hands and how not to play them you can probably beat half the field.
 
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Sat Jun 08, 2013, 11:19 AM
(#2)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
6 max hypers are hard enough to beat the rake, I think it would be worse at full ring. You'd do very well with a 1% ROI.

I'm shoving that turn and river. Both opponents were never folding but there was a chance they could have checked that river.
 
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Sat Jun 08, 2013, 03:06 PM
(#3)
raccy's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 130
Players who cannot see the huge mistakes in this hand shouldn't expect anything other than a negative ROI after a few hundred games. (80-90% of the players have a negative ROI anyway) If you're any good, 1% ROI isn't a whole lot at this level. 10% ROI is good, given the level of other players which you can see in this example.
 
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Sat Jun 08, 2013, 06:56 PM
(#4)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
The huge mistakes were them limping and then the guy with AK should be raising preflop, i dont know why the guy with AK is stacking off with all of you in the pot, I wonder if you would of posted this hand if the guy with AK had pocket tens lol.

I dont play many tourneys but in a cash gme if i got a boat im betting the turn or raising because draws are gonna fold the river.

What was villain 6 doing calling the turn and folding a raise i guess he was looking for a spade and decided against it.

Last edited by mike2198; Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 06:59 PM..
 
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Sat Jun 08, 2013, 07:29 PM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
EDIT: I wrote the following before I saw the OP's stellar results in hypers. I guess this makes me a fish, because I would play the hand completely differently. I now see that Raccy knows what he's doing, so it seems these hypers require a totally different strategy to the one I'm used to.

--

I'm not a turbo specialist, but it strikes me that everyone involved in this hand played it badly, including hero. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but...
Why on earth are you completing in the small blind with 83o?
Why are you not betting the flop?
Why are you not shoving the turn?

I wouldn't slowplay a boat multiway in a 100bb cash game, let alone a 25bb hyper. :/


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Sat Jun 08, 2013 at 08:02 PM..
 
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Sun Jun 09, 2013, 09:39 AM
(#6)
raccy's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 130
Good points everyone. I don't think limping with 10s is as bad as limping with AK (although it is bad) and if you get away with your bad play - there's no lesson to learn!

Also, my point was not to show how to play a hand like 83. I'm not saying my play was optimal in that hand but given the flop, it would've been hard to lose. The point was the play that I see every day: these players limp in the pot with hands like AK and AT. I've never seen a winning player do that and I believe I know the regulars who are winning players at that level. (Heads-up is a slightly different story)

Then some answers:

Why play hands like 83 at all? In this hand it was 10 chips to call when the pot was 88 chips. "Cheap enough", I thought. Obviously, I rarely get to see the flop with an 83 when there are villains with aces around.

Why not bet the flop? This is a tricky spot. You've flopped a monster but you've got three players acting after you. You don't want to scare them out of the pot if they've completely missed the flop. I think it's better to watch and see their action first. Maybe one of them wants to try a bluff?

Why not shove the turn? I wasn't confident I had the best hand. The same goes for the river. The blinds are small, so the first limper may have been slow playing a monster, say AA. The second limper could be just calling with a hand like A3s and the BB could've been just checking with 88. I never slow play AA even in the beginning of the tournament but I have limped in with A3s and also just checked 88. The lack of action on the flop and just plain calling make you wonder. I'd also never seen these players before so I had no reads of them. One thing I've learned about them is that they don't play by the book.

Villain 6 calling the turn and folding to a raise ... yes, could've been a flush draw, but also two over cards, a pocket pair or an 8.

Another thing that strikes me is that my villains weren't afraid of anyone having a 3, as if they only looked at the strength of their own hand. Or maybe I was just good at hiding my 3

If you've got AK Do Not Limp!
 
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Sun Jun 09, 2013, 10:35 AM
(#7)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by raccy View Post
Good points everyone. I don't think limping with 10s is as bad as limping with AK (although it is bad) and if you get away with your bad play - there's no lesson to learn!

Also, my point was not to show how to play a hand like 83. I'm not saying my play was optimal in that hand but given the flop, it would've been hard to lose. The point was the play that I see every day: these players limp in the pot with hands like AK and AT. I've never seen a winning player do that and I believe I know the regulars who are winning players at that level. (Heads-up is a slightly different story)

Then some answers:

Why play hands like 83 at all? In this hand it was 10 chips to call when the pot was 88 chips. "Cheap enough", I thought. Obviously, I rarely get to see the flop with an 83 when there are villains with aces around.

Why not bet the flop? This is a tricky spot. You've flopped a monster but you've got three players acting after you. You don't want to scare them out of the pot if they've completely missed the flop. I think it's better to watch and see their action first. Maybe one of them wants to try a bluff?

Why not shove the turn? I wasn't confident I had the best hand. The same goes for the river. The blinds are small, so the first limper may have been slow playing a monster, say AA. The second limper could be just calling with a hand like A3s and the BB could've been just checking with 88. I never slow play AA even in the beginning of the tournament but I have limped in with A3s and also just checked 88. The lack of action on the flop and just plain calling make you wonder. I'd also never seen these players before so I had no reads of them. One thing I've learned about them is that they don't play by the book.

Villain 6 calling the turn and folding to a raise ... yes, could've been a flush draw, but also two over cards, a pocket pair or an 8.

Another thing that strikes me is that my villains weren't afraid of anyone having a 3, as if they only looked at the strength of their own hand. Or maybe I was just good at hiding my 3

If you've got AK Do Not Limp!
Fair analysis, it's hard enough getting a playable hand in Hypers so I don't mind completing here. Hit big (2 pair plus) or get out is an easy play.

I must ask though, if you weren't sure you were ahead then were you ever folding?

If not then it's always better to get your chips in first and ask questions of others. As played I'm shoving that river and getting 1 caller at least with the A on board. I'm 100% going broke on this hand if need be.
 
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Sun Jun 09, 2013, 05:09 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by raccy View Post
Good points everyone. I don't think limping with 10s is as bad as limping with AK (although it is bad) and if you get away with your bad play - there's no lesson to learn!

Also, my point was not to show how to play a hand like 83. I'm not saying my play was optimal in that hand but given the flop, it would've been hard to lose. The point was the play that I see every day: these players limp in the pot with hands like AK and AT. I've never seen a winning player do that and I believe I know the regulars who are winning players at that level. (Heads-up is a slightly different story)

Then some answers:

Why play hands like 83 at all? In this hand it was 10 chips to call when the pot was 88 chips. "Cheap enough", I thought. Obviously, I rarely get to see the flop with an 83 when there are villains with aces around.

Why not bet the flop? This is a tricky spot. You've flopped a monster but you've got three players acting after you. You don't want to scare them out of the pot if they've completely missed the flop. I think it's better to watch and see their action first. Maybe one of them wants to try a bluff?

Why not shove the turn? I wasn't confident I had the best hand. The same goes for the river. The blinds are small, so the first limper may have been slow playing a monster, say AA. The second limper could be just calling with a hand like A3s and the BB could've been just checking with 88. I never slow play AA even in the beginning of the tournament but I have limped in with A3s and also just checked 88. The lack of action on the flop and just plain calling make you wonder. I'd also never seen these players before so I had no reads of them. One thing I've learned about them is that they don't play by the book.

Villain 6 calling the turn and folding to a raise ... yes, could've been a flush draw, but also two over cards, a pocket pair or an 8.

Another thing that strikes me is that my villains weren't afraid of anyone having a 3, as if they only looked at the strength of their own hand. Or maybe I was just good at hiding my 3

If you've got AK Do Not Limp!
Even if villain 1 was slo playing aces you cant fold your hand so i would be betting, i can understand your call preflop even though your hand was terrible, i have seen the blinds win so many times when people limp even with terrible hands.

You cant raise but i wouldnt fold either because you know if you hit for the cheap price your getting payed so fair play to the call pre i would of bet or raised on the turn though but thats my opinion maybe not the best one but i dont like check/calling when they can just check and you dont get payed then.
 
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Mon Jun 10, 2013, 06:12 PM
(#9)
raccy's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 130
As Mike said, you can't fold. What you can do is check just because the pot is big enough already. Say you were playing deep stack and you had a stack of 20,000. I wouldn't go all in with my 83 but if someone else did, I might reluctantly call.

Check/calling was what two of the villains were doing and I couldn't tell if were strong and trying to trap you or if they were weak and chasing for something.
 

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