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5NL 6-max KK MW

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5NL 6-max KK MW - Mon Jun 10, 2013, 07:07 PM
(#1)
fp_boss77's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Hi, both viallins are unkown.
Can a 3B here on the flop be called by a worse hand ?
Should I give up on the flop ? since sets, two pairs and pair+FD are quite possible ?

He had Ac Qh.



Thanks
 
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Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:30 AM
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adohole's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,083
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well this is an interesting hand i think a 3bet can be called by aq and kq but i like that you just called btw sets are higly unlikly th only set he could have is 444 becasue he would 3 bet jj and qq pre flop imo but he could have qj here and pairs+fd. the turn is a nice check. im also pretty confident that you have the best hand at the river but the last card is a pretty scary one not per se that it hits his range hard but it will look scary for him aswell i think the bet is good. i think that i would have check called, but i think the bt might be better as long as you inted to fold to a shove.
really intersted in what the pro's will say about this hand


Triple Bracelet Winner

 
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Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:03 AM
(#3)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Hey fp_boss ... your name sounds familiar - do you attend live training a lot? Think it may be from there? Im playing 5nl Zoom too

Have noticed you working hard at trying to improve your game, which reminds me a lot of me Just wanted to pop in and mention that there's a lot of stuff on 5nl that I've posted in my Time Vault thread over here in case you're interested in checking stuff out: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...ault-Challenge. And that one of the tips that was given out in one of the live training classes (Taking Note of Zoom, IDing the Regulars Pt 1)that I mention in the thread, was that if we play the same time every day, then nobody at zoom is ever really 'unknown', because there'll be regulars who we see every day and have stats on. So usually an 'unknown'll' tend to be a casual, recreational player? And other signs to indicate that's the case that were mentioned in live training would be if the villain's only playing one table, isn't using auto top-up and has a less than 100bb stack, limp-calls, etc. So that more often than not, regulars who play 4-tables are going to tend to have more experience and be better, while the recreational players are going to have less and are going to be less experienced?

I think that's what Dave was getting at here when he mentioned the villain's having less than a full stack as being indicative of a weak player:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
With the stack size he's playing (and you should check how many tables, probably only 1 most likely), he's likely to be a weak player. Trying to get weak players to fold top pair is lighting money on fire. Especially when it's a pair of aces. And 2 pair? No one is folding 2 pair here. Think about it... weak players would never dream of folding 2 pair unless the board got super scary, and even then sometimes they can't find a fold.
And Roland mentions some stuff about trying to pick up reads quickly at regular cash tables here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland GTX View Post
We ought to know something about the villain if he has been at the table for an orbit at least. Has he played every hand, none at all or something in between?
There was a while there when my HUD wasn't working, where all I had was 'reads' like these, and they were surprisingly reliable. So, I thought maybe you might it something interesting to experiment with yourself? Or not??

Because like, if you find them reliable, then maybe some of this advice from Felix on playing against a recreational player might have been applicable (about betting a little bigger for value and protection, since oop, and the board was wet, recreational players likely to call with worse ... but not jamming, since here you just had an overpair, not a set?):

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSO-xflixx View Post
The big disadvantage we have to overcome in a hand like this is being in such a bad relative position. That's why I think we should try to get more money into the pot on an earlier street somehow by leading out or raising villain's small flopraise. Leading also has two major advantages of 1) getting a call from the recreational player before the raiser acts which traps dead money for us and 2) not forcing out the recr. player with a bigger than normal raise OOP.

Also, after I started building up a bit of a collection of HA hands, I started to create a 'library' where I could summarize the tips, and keep track of my progress in trying to incorporate them into my game?

For example, Arty here gives you a hand ranging template that could be used on the 44 hand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
You can start ranging villain pre-flop and then narrow his range as the action proceeds.
Since he called in position on the button, I'd put him on pocket pairs and suited connectors. The flop is pretty ugly for KK, as this flop smashes the button's range. Since he doesn't raise the flop, I think we can rule out sets (unless villain is a notorious slowplayer), as something like 66 would usually raise it up on this wet board. The flat call looks more like a draw or a pair+draw combo. Hands like JThh have the flush draw and two overs, hands like 76 and 86 have a pair plus OESD. I guess 99 and TT might also be in the pot.
Villain calls on the turn, so the queen doesn't scare him. This would generally indicate he has a draw, because flopped top pair hands like A8s might give up at this point.
The river pairs the board and doesn't complete any straight/flush draws. It's pretty thin to bet half pot for value here, because I doubt 8x is calling, and 99/TT might not have even made it past the turn. A smaller bet to target those hands might be more appropriate. When villain raises, it's likely that he slowplayed a set or two pairs (65) and just made a boat/quads, or he was calling with 76s (bottom pair + OESD) and rivered trips. Villain's value-raising range crushes your hand, so it's a fairly easy fold.
So much to learn, isn't there? I hear ya!! wave:

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 08:46 AM.. Reason: added links
 
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Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:20 PM
(#4)
fp_boss77's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks for the insights guys, they were really helpful

And I'll take a look at the Vault Sam, thanks
 
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Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:55 PM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Hey, while you're there, if you think of any tips for me, please don't be shy about letting me know - I could use all the help I can get!!


The 1-tabling thing's worked so much better than I could have imagined. Because ranging's something that's been slow-going for me. Like, it's not uncommon for me to think up a range - and then we get to showdown and the villain'll have something totally outside the realm of what I was thinking So while my ranging isn't very reliable, there's still the one-tabling and lack of auto top-up to rely on to help make decisions, and that's worked out pretty well.


Like here's a hand from today as an example - before getting in the habit checking to see how many tables the villain was playing, I'd have probably been worried the villain might have been slowplaying a boat. Then after getting in the habit of checking to see how many tables the villain was playing, I would have thought the villain might have completed the bb and called the turn bet with some sort of middling pocket pair like 77, 66, ... or maybe a heart flush draw or something??

Click to show hidden text


So yeah, my ranging was totally off. But the 'one-tabling tell', and 'lack of auto top-up tell' was right about the villain having a wider range, so that was helpful Hopefully the ranging'll get better in time?


GL GL to all of us with our grinds!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 08:58 PM..
 
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Wed Jun 12, 2013, 04:35 AM
(#6)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hi fp_boss77

@adohole: I'm not a pro, but I'll try to give you your money's worth!
@TrustySam: If you take notes at the table as meticulously as you take notes referencing all the material here at PSO, you are going to be crushing us all in no time!

@fp_boss77: If this is a regular 6-Max table (not Zoom) then the villains should not be unknowns. I would recommend focusing on your note-taking. Recognizing the strong and weak players at the table is decisive if you want improve. Luckily it is quite easy, too. Start by keeping an eye on how many hands they are playing (tight/loose) and how they are playing them (passive/aggressive). In particular, any time a hand goes to the showdown, use the replay btn to review how the players played their hands. This makes interpeting click-back raises like you encountered in this hand a bit easier. Note taking is easiest, as Sam points out, when single tabling. Give it your full attention

Let's take a look at the hand. Preflop is perfect, but you get two callers. I would bet this flop as you did, but considerably more.

You lead with 40c into a 72c which is about 55% of the pot. This is bad because you are giving your opponents decent odds to chase. The board is very wet and fitting the villain ranges well. You are most likely ahead at the moment, but play on later streets is going to be difficult with so many potential scare cards shutting down the action. I would recommend betting at least 70% but perhaps even pot-sized. This is for value and to protect our hand. With a board like this and two opponents, there is a good chance we will get action.

As played you get min-raised. Now is when I really would like some info on the villain! Normally a click-back raise at 5NL indicates a polarized hand. Either they have a monster, or are pretty weak. This doesn't look like a safe spot to be getting fancy with a set or two pair. So, a weak hand or drawing hand seem more likely.

I would actually prefer 3-betting now because so many turn cards are going to shut down our action or the villain's. I don't normally go bananas with an overpair, but I don't feel it is risking more than calling now then Bet/folding or check-calling the turn. The only advantage is that we are presumably ahead now, and may get action from drawing hands that still hope to catch a card.

As played, the turn is a scare card helping both straight and flush draws. Now we are kind of lost in the hand. If we bet, we will have to fold to a raise. If the villain folds, we may have missed out on some value that 3-betting the flop would have given us. Checking seems safest. If the villain checks behind, we are probably still ahead and should be able to get to the showdown. If he bets we will have to reevaluate. I'm not too happy about calling a 50% pot or larger bet because we will probably be facing a new bet on the river and there aren't any cards that improve our hand to the nuts.

The villain checked, which was good, but the river is another scare card. Personally, I would have check-called the river. This keeps the villain's range wide and may induce him to bet with a semi-bluff hand that we are beating. Leading out seems problematic. If we get raised, we will be forced to fold. Moreover, I normally wouldn't expect to be getting more value out of the villain. All the hands we are beating will be hard pressed to call on this board. I feel like we have a better chance of gaining the extra value by check-calling. Many of the hands a villain would fold to a river bet, are hands they might try semi-bluffing with after we have shown weakness on two streets.

Tough spot any way you look at it, but that is my take

GL and work on getting those notes fp-boss77

Roland GTX

Last edited by Roland GTX; Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 04:47 AM..
 
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Wed Jun 12, 2013, 01:07 PM
(#7)
fp_boss77's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Thanks all you guys again

I'm usually taking a lot of notes. But there are a lot of 'new' players every day, so I'm not able to always rely on notes.
 
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Wed Jun 12, 2013, 06:11 PM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Wow, Roland all that post-flop detail you give on the turn and river's fantastic.


First, because yeah the turn's such a tricky spot, that I was really unsure of how best to proceed.

And then second, because you show us how to think through all our options, consider all the possible outcomes, and then use that to decide what's the best possible course of action. Which isn't something I do yet at the tables - since I'm still trying to master folding lol

Gareth does that all the time in live training videos, so it's on my list of things to do. But I guess it's so far off from where I'm at, that I didn't really put two and two together and recognize that this is a spot where having that skill-set would help us figure out how best to proceed.

It's exciting to see that there's still a TON of stuff to learn that ought to really help at the tables - guess always having something new to learn is what keeps things interesting


And then your river analysis - if only this had been posted a couple of months ago, before I figured out the hard way that the people I've been playing against were only ever going to call with better and fold out worse


And then ya, haha!! My note-taking's great thanks to those tips from those live training classes. So I at least do that one thing well - which helps offset the fact that pretty much everything else is a serious work in progress But lots of fun


Thanks again for the fantastic analysis Roland - super helpful!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 06:13 PM..
 
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Thu Jun 13, 2013, 04:08 AM
(#9)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Thank you TrustySam!

Note, this analysis wasn't an easy for me! It took some time for me to work this one out, and I'm not sure I would have reached the conclusion fast enough during one of my own sessions. Reviewing spots like this helps me improve, too.

Roland GTX
 

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