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10nl - AJo firing 3 barrels with A high.

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10nl - AJo firing 3 barrels with A high. - Wed Jun 12, 2013, 06:01 PM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
The villain was 42/18/5 AF 1.2 over 77 hands. Unfortunately I have no notes on him.



Prelop I think a 3bet is mandatory given the player type. I want to play HU with initiative vs this player. Throw into the connundrum the fact that the BB will squeeze fairly often when I flat (his 3bet was 16% overall) and I think we all will agree 3betting is the way to go.

Once I 3bet I decided to cbet since I block a lot of draws as I hold a J and the Ah. Also it's less likely he connected with the board due to it being paired. I think when I cbet small PP's will fold and we have some good barreling cards to apply pressure on.

The villain calls and the 8h hits which massively co-ordinates the board, however I pick up and OESD and the NFD. At this point I think checking would be dumb as we have A high and can certainly make 1 pair hands fold. eg 97s 87s 22-77. Combined with the 15 ways we can hit the river and the fact we are OOP I think makes it a great double barrel spot.

Unfortuantely for us the villain calls again and we brick the river.

The villain has just under a 2/3 PSB left in his stack and I have A high with no hope of winning the pot at SD. I think when I shove the river it shows incredible strength and even though the player is shaping up to be somewhat loose passive it is highly we can get hands that beat us to fold. I think it's possible for him to fold hands as stong as QT at this point but I'd be interested to hear what others think?

Thanks

Oli


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Last edited by Croyd93; Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 06:48 PM..
 
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Wed Jun 12, 2013, 06:24 PM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I dont think a loose player ever folds a JT straight, hes not even folding 67, if he was a good player i would question if you are capable of 3 betting pockets 99 and 88.

I wouldnt 3bet low pocket pairs in the blinds even when im crushing there range i dont know about other players i havent seen it happen before but i geuss its possible but i cant ever see a JT straight folding as for two pairs and one pairs and overpairs i definitely think there folding it depends if the villain has a fold button i guess.

I know the style of play is gonna be diff at your stakes so doubt my opinion is any good but i find a shove to be stronger when a loose passive shoves the river after calling the flop and turn because they always seem to hit a set when they do that on the river another thing i have noticed them doing is in a 3bet pot if they miss they ship the flop with any pair and a draw.

So for him to be calling i guess he has a pretty good hand and i think he might have shoved the river if you never unless he busted a draw

By the way you was only betting just over half pot on the flop and turn so would a good player put you on a bluff at 10nl? i would expect a made hand to be betting like 80 odd percent with a straight or a set/ boat.

Yeah if i see a player bet half pot il float them or raise and normally take the pot off them if there a reg but some players do actually bet half pot with the nutz but i bet you dont when you have a made hand.

Last edited by mike2198; Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 06:29 PM..
 
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Wed Jun 12, 2013, 06:55 PM
(#3)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
My bad mike I meant QT/KT for trip T's. I don't expect this player to ever fold a straight here. (I've edited it now)

As for 3betting 88/99 preflop, I would certainly be doing so vs this villain since if I flat I will have to fold to a squeeze a lot when the BB 3bets. I think when I 3bet the villain is going to call a tonne so my 3bet is for value. If the player was aggressive postflop then I would be inclined to fold preflop as I wouldn't beable to get to showdown enough to make playing the pot profitable however he had shown an inclination to check down, his WTSD was 48%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
By the way you was only betting just over half pot on the flop and turn so would a good player put you on a bluff at 10nl? i would expect a made hand to be betting like 80 odd percent with a straight or a set/ boat.

Yeah if i see a player bet half pot il float them or raise and normally take the pot off them if there a reg but some players do actually bet half pot with the nutz but i bet you dont when you have a made hand.

OTF I'm betting half pot as I generally make this my standard in 3b pots, so I would be betting half pot here with all my strong hands as well as my misses but only against regulars where I don't want to give away any bet sizing tells. Against this player I would have bet bigger with my value hands as I feel his calling range is inelastic. Obviously I will adjust as different factors are taken into account but here I felt it was the best option as it allowed me to bluff cheaply and I didn't think he would read into my bet size at all.

OTT I again decided to bet small as I felt it gave me a good price to bluff without effecting his calling range.


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Last edited by Croyd93; Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 06:58 PM..
 
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Fri Jun 14, 2013, 01:03 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
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Hi Oli,

3b pre is ok again, but it's not mandatory... this guy is pretty loose and somewhat passive so his raising range is probably on the stronger side, AJo is no monster vs. this range.

Post flop we feel like we have to follow through when we 3b pre but this is a terrible board for it, this board interacts with his range better than ours, and with the stats he's playing he's likely to put us on AK and station us down with any pair. So I expect a c-bet to get very few folds directly on the flop tbh.

Turn I would check, although we've turned a bunch of equity, we're still semi-bluffing and there is not much bluff component here against this guy. And he can have a lot of hands that would raise us now on the turn, forcing us to fold off our equity (if he has 67 of spades for instance, we have a lot of outs, but can't really call a raise since we can be drawing dead as well to full houses and drawing bad vs. flushes). The nice thing is if he bets we should have enough equity to call, and if he's got a more marginal hand he'll always check it being passive, so we can take advantage of his passive tendencies to take a free card and realize our equity.

As for bombing the river, I don't seriously expect him to fold 3 tens... this guy will station us down with A9 imo. Loose-passive and sticky does not a good bluff target make.


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Fri Jun 14, 2013, 05:48 AM
(#5)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Hi Dave,

Interesting to see you say the 3b pre is not mandatory. Given that the BB is 22/19/16.1 (98 hands) and has squeezed on 50% of opportunities (I can't find the number of opportunites he's had) does this incline you to like 3betting more?

As played with the 3bet would you cbet? You say you think the board intereacts well with his range which I agree with but we can get some better hands to fold such as AQ and 22-88. OTT I much prefer your check/call line as it will often check through.

Ultimately I think I got very lucky here as I decided to bomb the river and the villain snap folded.

Thanks

Oli


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Fri Jun 14, 2013, 09:58 AM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
Hi Dave,

Interesting to see you say the 3b pre is not mandatory. Given that the BB is 22/19/16.1 (98 hands) and has squeezed on 50% of opportunities (I can't find the number of opportunites he's had) does this incline you to like 3betting more?
The squeeze is probably 2 of 4. Doesn't mean anything. Although 16.1% 3B's is really high, if he has any clue he should only be squeezing here for value against this opener, so if we flat and he 3b's AJ is an easy fold imo.

Quote:
As played with the 3bet would you cbet? You say you think the board intereacts well with his range which I agree with but we can get some better hands to fold such as AQ and 22-88.
I think the only better hands we can get to fold are AQ and AK, and this guy might not even fold those to a single c-bet. Especially AK, loose passives don't like to fold that to 1 post flop bet. As I said originally, he's not folding 22-88 on this flop texture, he'll put us on AK and station us down quite often imo.


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Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:44 AM
(#7)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
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More of a general comment but something I'm guilty of frequently (and sounds like you could be too Croyd) is to not assume that your opponents are capable of thinking about hands the same way you are. I have often found myself thinking "how can he call there, doesn't he understand what i'm repping?! Fact is, they don't care and are incapable of deciphering it anyway! I has pair, I call.

(I am not making myself out to be some high level thinker or great hand reader but at least we're trying to range our opponents!)
 
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Fri Jun 14, 2013, 01:46 PM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
The villain was 42/18/5 AF 1.2 over 77 hands.
Hey Oliver!

So many of the hands that get posted in HA don't have post-flop HUD stats listed ... have to admit, sometimes I forget to pay as much attention to the post-flop stats to help make decisions as I do the pre-flop ones. But when I've remembered, they've seem to help?

On the other hand, I remember TheAwesomeNW saying he hasn't found the wtsd and w$sd stats to be very helpful. Was interested in hearing your thoughts as well on post-flop HUD stats - do you find yourself using them a lot, or are you finding yourself tending to rely more on the action to make your decisions, etc?
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 07:34 AM
(#9)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceKingBlows View Post
More of a general comment but something I'm guilty of frequently (and sounds like you could be too Croyd) is to not assume that your opponents are capable of thinking about hands the same way you are. I have often found myself thinking "how can he call there, doesn't he understand what i'm repping?! Fact is, they don't care and are incapable of deciphering it anyway! I has pair, I call.

(I am not making myself out to be some high level thinker or great hand reader but at least we're trying to range our opponents!)
I am certianly a culprit of making this mistake. I think in the moment it is easy to forget that the player you are playing against will not take the same action you would with a certain hand. However I never forget to thin value bet so maybe I need to stop and ask myself half a dozen times if I actually have fold equity when trying to make the opponent fold.

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Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Hey Oliver!

So many of the hands that get posted in HA don't have post-flop HUD stats listed ... have to admit, sometimes I forget to pay as much attention to the post-flop stats to help make decisions as I do the pre-flop ones. But when I've remembered, they've seem to help?

On the other hand, I remember TheAwesomeNW saying he hasn't found the wtsd and w$sd stats to be very helpful. Was interested in hearing your thoughts as well on post-flop HUD stats - do you find yourself using them a lot, or are you finding yourself tending to rely more on the action to make your decisions, etc?
Hi Sam,

I think that postflop HUD stats can be both extremely useful but also misleading when used incorrectly. Postflop stats take a longer time to converge so I tend to take them with a pinch of salt unless I have at least a few hundred hands.

AF converges pretty quickly however, as does AgFq%. These are great indicators of how aggressive the opponent is and if you are keeping an eye on how they play certain hands they can be extremely useful when constructing an overall plan of how to exploit the opponent. I do use WTSD but again only to get a general idea of what type of player someone is. Using WTSD and AF/AgFq% can indicate whether a player is a calling station, high WTSD low aggression. Or a manical bluffer, high aggression low WTSD. If, however, the opponent is aggressive yet still has a high WTSD, he probably calls way too often with weak hands on the river.

Using all the information you have available helps you map out ways to exploit your opponent, it is also very important to watch how they play different types of hand, do they raise TP OTF or donk out? Will they just call down regardless of their hand strength? I do admit I'm not great at taking notes but I keep my eye on the tables and follow the game flow fairly well, players aren't static entities they are prone to tilt and in more ways than one. How many times have you seen a fairly passive player win a big pot and proceed to lose it all fairly quickly due to his inability to remain patient. Even the most passive players can have an aggressive side in my experience so don't rely too heavily on the number imo.


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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 09:42 AM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
Hi Sam,

I think that postflop HUD stats can be both extremely useful but also misleading when used incorrectly. Postflop stats take a longer time to converge so I tend to take them with a pinch of salt unless I have at least a few hundred hands.

AF converges pretty quickly however, as does AgFq%. These are great indicators of how aggressive the opponent is and if you are keeping an eye on how they play certain hands they can be extremely useful when constructing an overall plan of how to exploit the opponent. I do use WTSD but again only to get a general idea of what type of player someone is. Using WTSD and AF/AgFq% can indicate whether a player is a calling station, high WTSD low aggression. Or a manical bluffer, high aggression low WTSD. If, however, the opponent is aggressive yet still has a high WTSD, he probably calls way too often with weak hands on the river.

Using all the information you have available helps you map out ways to exploit your opponent, it is also very important to watch how they play different types of hand, do they raise TP OTF or donk out? Will they just call down regardless of their hand strength? I do admit I'm not great at taking notes but I keep my eye on the tables and follow the game flow fairly well, players aren't static entities they are prone to tilt and in more ways than one. How many times have you seen a fairly passive player win a big pot and proceed to lose it all fairly quickly due to his inability to remain patient. Even the most passive players can have an aggressive side in my experience so don't rely too heavily on the number imo.

Hey Croyd ... Fun to trade notes!!

Well, I too use wtsd and w$sd in conjunction with AF. That being said, I read AF in conjuction with attempt to steal (by sposition - cutoff, button, and sb), fold to steal (by position - sb and bb), pre-flop 3bet, and flop and turn cbet stats, since it's a function of bets/raise versus calls.

You know what I use the wtsd/w$sd stats for in the Zoom pool, is as an indicator of a player's ability to hand-read, and their potential for bluffing or to be bluffed. Like if their stats are across the board all within standard ranges, then they're usually just playing straightforward. If somebody with unusually high VPIP has solid wtsd/w$sd stats, then that *can* be an indication that the villain is running hot - guess that's why I was wondering why nobody else was including the villain's wtsd/w$sd stats, since I've found them to be fairly reliable with a sample of around 75 or more when used this way (when there's no conflicting info)?

Although that being said, anytime I've tried describing my HUD usage in the past, it's been met with ... what's the word I'm looking for ... well, guess I should just add that the way I use stats is jmo, so if people aren't finding smaller samples to be reliable, then that's okay too. Just thought it'd be fun to share notes ... peace!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 09:46 AM..
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 10:08 AM
(#11)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
I find it interesting that you use AF in conjunction with a variety of preflop stats, I can see that the two are related since they all build up a big picture of how the opponent is playing but personally I tend to use the preflop stats together and postflop stats together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
If somebody with unusually high VPIP has solid wtsd/w$sd stats, then that *can* be an indication that the villain is running hot
This is why against players who are more solid I prefer to wait and see how a players stats level out over a larger sample. It's hard to tell over 50-100 hands whether they are just running hot or getting into a lot of spots where both players have a good amount of SDV so it checks down. The WTSD stat converges faster the more hands a player plays so if a player is playing 60% of hands then the WTSD stat will likely be more reliable over a small sample. I think this is pretty intuative as if you were playing a nit, something like 14/10, then it would be hard to gauge whether or not the WTSD stat is reliable. They will have seen very few flops and often with a strong range so it could be zero, because they are getting lots of folds postflop due to their image; or 100% as they saw one flop and it went to SD.

As for HUD useage, like everything in poker, there is no one way to use it. Sandtrap doesn't use a HUD and look at the success he has, however many other sucessful players do. Work out what works for you and build it into your game. After all it's a tool for personal use and no one can say you have to do anything you don't want to with it.



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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 10:22 AM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
I find it interesting that you use AF in conjunction with a variety of preflop stats, I can see that the two are related since they all build up a big picture of how the opponent is playing but personally I tend to use the preflop stats together and postflop stats together.

I use pre-flop AND post-flop stats to help interpret AF - actually I tried using AF by street stats, but wasn't finding them to be as useful as the system I was using of reading all 12 at once (14 including VPIP/PFR ... 16 for wtsd/w$sd). There's a lot of overlap/redundancy, which is why I find reading them in conjunction can oftentimes provide equivalent guarantees of trustworthiness, with fewer hands.

In any case, yeah that's true - HUD usage is very personal, so whatever people find works for them is what's best for them, ita!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 10:26 AM..
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 10:52 AM
(#13)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
When deciding to 3bet pre with AJo, I am far more interested in the openers stats for raise 1st from cutoff and fold to 3bet than the bb tendencies. I can remember a hand of mine Dave analysed where cutoff opened and I 3bet AJo from sb, there were some quite compelling reasons not to 3bet this kind of hand vs villain who is likely to call the 3 bet.

As played on the river, my feeling without checking numbers is the shove probably isn't profitable vs calling station or thinking player (different reasons of course).
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 12:47 PM
(#14)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
I find it interesting that you use AF in conjunction with a variety of preflop stats, I can see that the two are related since they all build up a big picture of how the opponent is playing but personally I tend to use the preflop stats together and postflop stats together.
Same here, although the VPIP stat has to be borne in mind when looking at post-flop numbers.

Most typically, I look for a correlation between AF and WTSD, to make a quick categorisation of a player.
Low AF + high WTSD = Calling station.
High AF + low WTSD = Nit/TAG fit-or-folder.
High AF + high WTSD = Nit that can't fold an overpair (low VPIP) or a spew-monkey/maniac (high VPIP).
Low AF + low WTSD = Semi-loose passive that folds to double/triple-barrels.


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