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Multi tabling

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Multi tabling - Sat Jun 15, 2013, 08:36 AM
(#1)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Whats the best amount of tables to run in zoom?

I was running 2 tables and making $10 a night for about a week at 2nl then i went back to studying poker and now i tried out 4 tabling and i can concentrate and play my a game on 4 just as easy as playing 1 table.

My problem is on two of the tables im playing i have a $10 stack and the other two im getting coolered and what ive noticed is by the time i hit 3k hands and i decide to call it a night i have like $25 sitting on all 4 tables but ive only made between £3 and $5 profit which is pretty bad seen as i made $16 on two tables.

Ive gone through the hands ive played and im not spewing its just been coolers i might of value owned myself a couple of times but nothing major.

Its really good for gaining ftps but i would rather be seeing a profit instead i know im making a profit but the trouble is when you have a night where you get coolered on all 4 tables those tiny profits dont make up for those bad nights.

Im just wondering is there anyone that has had the same problem am i better off keeping to two tables or should i try 6 tables and hope i can beat 4 tables instead of making money on half of the tables im playing to lose it on the other two.

Does anyone thats multi tabling win on all of there tables or is it fine losing on half of them it just seemed like when i was on 2 tables i won on every table but then i had the odd night where i lost on both but it was peanuts in comparison to losses on 4 tables but on 4 tables im winning half the tables and then on a bad night il lose on all but 1 and then your roll takes a beating.
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 09:52 AM
(#2)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I started off tiling, moved to cascading but now I stack. Each gets harder to achieve but you can play progressively more and more tables. All I can suggest is take it slowly. You probably haven't enough of a sample so you can't really tell if you're making a lot more by just 2 tabling.

Just keep adding a table at a time and you will become more comfortable. A year ago, 4 was about my max but now I can easily play 10. I'm sure there will come a time when I can 24.

One useful report on HEM2 is the multi table report, it can tell you how well you do with more tables open.

It's all about sample sizes.
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 10:46 AM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
That sounds good the multi table feature on hem2 im gonna see if i can trial hem2 and try that out now.
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:23 AM
(#4)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
It is for cash only BTW. Edit here - works with Zoom also afaik, just not STTs which I regularly play.

I'm a STT player which is why I didn't answer your Zoom or other parts of your question but I generally start 6-10 games at a time and play them out. I have had 16 open once but I lost in the session. That's not to mean I'm a loser at 16 tabling, just that I didn't feel confident when I had so many open.

If you know what your doing on 1 table then you can multiply it up on many. It does come down to sample size. You might not have had the luck when you 4 tabled and why your ROI was lower. Similarly, you may have had the luck when you 2 tabled, you just really won't know until you have a big enough sample.

Any ROI that's positive is good BTW.

Last edited by Ovalman; Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 11:30 AM.. Reason: added edit
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 11:53 AM
(#5)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Mike, the number of tables you can manage should not be your priority

I think that once you've accomplish the knowledge of the game, than the use of proper bankroll management and finally a very positive BB/100, you can start increasing the number of tables you play by one.

If you BB/100 is the same or as increase than you can add another, but if it decreases, drop a table, just like you would drop in stake if your bankroll dropped.

- The more tables you play, the bigger the bankroll needs to be
- The faster the bad beats show up
- You will lose more hands per hour as you increase the # of tables

I personally think that the more tables that are open are for grinders, those that make a living from it and for those that have a huge bankroll.

Since you're playing Zoom, the max is 4 tables
If you think you can play 4 tables of 2NL, than open 2 of 5NL or 1 of 10NL. The VPP result and cash result will be almost the same.

If you're not ready for 5NL, than you're not ready for 4 tables of 2NL, just my 2 cents

Here's the way I worked my way to where I'm at.
I started at 1 table, than increase it to 2 and would only increase it to 3 if my BB/100 was the same than at 2 after 5,000 hands.
Right now, my BR permits me to play 500NL 4 tables, but I know that I'm not ready for that level. I can play 4 tables at 50NL or 2 tables at 100NL or 1 at 200NL

Knowing your capacity and being honest to yourself is a first step. So many people think they can play lots of tables, when in fact they can't even play one.

So Mike, what is your goal?
Make money, Have a descent BB/100, To move up in stakes or to play as many tables win or lose

Hope this helps
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 12:24 PM
(#6)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Excellent post SandTrap
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 12:51 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Yeh that post makes perfect sense sandtrap i just cant figure out yet if i was running less BB/100 on 4 tables because i was having a bad run on two of them or am i not ready i dont know.

I just ran 2 tables now and was break even after 1k hands i am running pretty bad to be honest, as for my goal well thats simple i need to build a roll to move up the stakes ive all ready tryed 5nl and 10nl and ive ran good enough but my roll just isnt big enough for those stakes so i came back to 2nl before i got coolered and lost a big chunk of my roll.

Thats when i started to 4 table to get money faster but it dont seem to be working that way at the minute so i dont know what to do at the moment i figure il start opening 2 tables as usual and add 1 if im running good, il check my BB/100 as well as for 5nl i would like a bigger roll before i play there i decided to cash out $50 to buy the pt4 hud but then ended up with a months free trial unfortunately i have to get back to $150 again before i move up.

Last edited by mike2198; Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 12:54 PM..
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 01:32 PM
(#8)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Yeh that post makes perfect sense sandtrap i just cant figure out yet if i was running less BB/100 on 4 tables because i was having a bad run on two of them or am i not ready i dont know.
Playing 1 or 20 tables, you'll always have bad runs, it's just that they will come faster as you're playing more hands, but you'll also get more good hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
I just ran 2 tables now and was break even after 1k hands i am running pretty bad to be honest, as for my goal well thats simple i need to build a roll to move up the stakes ive all ready tryed 5nl and 10nl and ive ran good enough but my roll just isnt big enough for those stakes so i came back to 2nl before i got coolered and lost a big chunk of my roll.
If your roll is not big enough for a higher stake, than it would also mean that it's not big enough for bigger amount of tables, you'll have to make sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Thats when i started to 4 table to get money faster but it dont seem to be working that way at the minute so i dont know what to do at the moment i figure il start opening 2 tables as usual and add 1 if im running good, il check my BB/100 as well as for 5nl i would like a bigger roll before i play there i decided to cash out $50 to buy the pt4 hud but then ended up with a months free trial unfortunately i have to get back to $150 again before i move up.
Really??? to make money faster, might as well play 500NL...LOL. It should take the time that it will take, no need to rush it

Here's a suggestion:
Open only 1 table
Once that table as reached $4, close it and open up 2 tables
When one of those tables reaches another $4, close it and open another 2, so now you'd be at 3 tables.
BUT, if you fall to $0 at a table, you don't open another
Hope this makes sense, this way you're risking your profit on the extra tables

Good luck
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 01:59 PM
(#9)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Really??? to make money faster, might as well play 500NL...LOL. It should take the time that it will take, no need to rush it

Well i figure im playing well enough to be profitable at higher stakes so i could do with getting away from 2nl now.

I think my biggest mistakes are overpairs not because i overplay them but perhaps because i fold them to much, my other problem is using lines that good players use at higher stakes at 2nl and thinking i can rep like a straight wen it hits and villain will fold his top pair.

Not many of them do im not spewing a tonne of chips though so its no biggy i could do with sorting out the overpair hands though.
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 03:44 PM
(#10)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,424
this is a good thread lots of info here and multitabling is somethign iREALLY struggle with

May I ask Sandtrap when you say "Right now, my BR permits me to play 500NL 4 tables, but I know that I'm not ready for that level" this is exactly the way i feel about moving up andit stopping me from moving up

but how do you know if your ready or not for the next level ?

@Mike if you are playing to win then use bankroll management and look at your hourly win rate

so if 1 table of 1/c/2c is your highest $ then I would stick at that

if 2 tabling 2c/5c is your hishest then play that

but also learnig is very important as we go along

Another question i have is when you mulittable do you tilt less?....ive tried palyin 2 frerolls and i know im not ready for 2 tables as the action comes too fast at me and i end up gambing in 1 of the games kind of trying to lose (seems crazy right?) so that I cn get back to my 1 table that im much more acustomed too

sorry more questions than answers here but hope i added to the discussion

rolo
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 04:43 PM
(#11)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Yes rolo i know what you mean when you say the action comes to fast when multi tabling, that was a problem i had but it was because my hand reading wasnt as good and because i didnt understand position and ranges aswell/ why people call instead of raising.

Basically i know whats going on at the table at a glance where as before i had to really look and think about what was going on and how do i gain maximum value from this particular player, the buzzer kept going off i was that slow now it only goes off in a big hand and i just got raised pretty big.

So i guess your probably not taking it all in fast enough to play all those tables as for tilting well im as cool as a cucumber when it comes down to me getting coolered and i just play the next hand as if nothing happened but im sure you have all seen me winging about it after.

Im glad sandtrap said about how you should only play more tables if your BB/100 is better i went back to 2 tables and this is how i done over 1200 hands.






As you can see im running alot better at 2 tables my WTSD is high though, ive widened my range recently though and my 3 bet is alot higher now i was running 13 vp and 3 3bet.

this is what each of my stat numbers mean VPIP / PFR / 3BET / FOLD 3BET / ATT STEAL / FOLD STEAL / DONK FLOP / CBET FLOP / CBET TURN / FOLD FLOP BET / AGGRESSION FACTOR

Last edited by mike2198; Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 04:45 PM..
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 05:27 PM
(#12)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
May I ask Sandtrap when you say "Right now, my BR permits me to play 500NL 4 tables, but I know that I'm not ready for that level" this is exactly the way i feel about moving up andit stopping me from moving up

but how do you know if your ready or not for the next level ?
Right now I'm very comfortable playing 4 tables of 50NL (I play Zoom), so I've reduce it to 2 and added 1 of 100NL and 1 of 200NL. I concentrate maybe 80% of my time watching, taking notes on players on the 100NL and 200NL. My 50NL almost plays by itself now.
I've tried 4 tables of 100NL and it became to stressful. You've got to know where your limits are.

When I was trying for the Billionth hand, I dropped in stakes, so I was very comfortable playing 16 tables. But with that many tables, you need to play ABC poker, no fancy stuff, bluffing at it's minimum and definitely no HUD, as you have no time to search info (oops...I don't use HUD's...lol)


Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
Another question i have is when you mulittable do you tilt less?....ive tried palyin 2 frerolls and i know im not ready for 2 tables as the action comes too fast at me and i end up gambing in 1 of the games kind of trying to lose (seems crazy right?) so that I cn get back to my 1 table that im much more acustomed too
rolo
Do you tilt less? I have to say no, you tilt more, because you're playing more hands. If you tilt every 1,000 hands and it takes you 15 hours at one table, playing 4 tables, you would then tilt every 4 hours, numbers don't change.
BUT.... by playing more tables, like I said earlier, you would be playing ABC poker and less fancy stuff, so you might end up with less tilt
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 06:24 PM
(#13)
MadMike261's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 31
Multi tabling is all about increasing your $/hour.
I think it is generally accepted that as you increase the amount of table you play beond a certain amount, your bb/100 will drop (slightly), but due to increasing volume your $/hour will go up.

During the 2 hours before the 100B milestone I played 24 tables, but I had to play standard ABC to be able to keep up (around 2000 hands/hour).
Normally I play 4 tables of zoom or 9-12 regular tables, both are around 1000 hands/hour.
This is around the max I can play optimally with very close to my optimal bb/100.

How did I get there?
Started with 1 table and slowly added more as I became more comfortable.
When I moved up stakes, I just started with 1 table of the next stake and the rest of the tables at my old stake.
And slowly moved away more tables from the old stake to the new stake.

There are tools out there that will certainly help you with keeping up. I use these:
- HUD -> HM1 and now HM2
The HUD is really helping me to see who I am up against, and to analyze regulars.
Besides that it allows me to mark hands for later review (sort by marked hands) so I can review these hands after a session to make notes or evaluate my play.

HM also has a page to show a few quick stats about your current session. I will look at it if I feel I am doing good/bad to check with reality (boy has my good/bad feeling been wrong a lot of times).

It also helps keeping track of my bb/100 and $/hour winrates and many more things

-Tableninja
helps with keybindings and automated bet inputs so I can bet what I want faster.
 
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Sat Jun 15, 2013, 07:12 PM
(#14)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
mike2198: Your stats for that session look excellent. Nice work.

MadMike261: Your approach to moving up and adding tables is the same as mine.

I've never been comfortable with more than 4 tables (I'm simply not very good at multi-tasking) and tend to make a bundle of mistakes if I play 5 or 6. Everyone is different. There's no rush to move up. Play the number (and speed) of tables that you are comfortable with. If your winrate takes a nosedive, then go back to your normal amount.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Jun 16, 2013, 01:46 AM
(#15)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,424
its late here but here goes....could be a long one

yeah i see it was stress for you guess it the sam e fo r me....I do notice less tilt in fact say im playing 2 and i bust 1(ops most o fth etiem im talking about tournaments while a lot fo you are in cash) but hoping same principles apply

well i dont even see or reallycare why/how i busted as im more thna busy playing 1

yeah mike makes sense less tables your winrate go up...especially if your like me


havebegun my cash journey at 1c/2c and im well wa sdoing well hit a downturn and im moving back up profitswise i mean

I think cash games are simpler than tournaments no offence so maybe i can manage 2 tables in cash but it rare ican find the right tables fo r me

madmike you dont see mad at al godo advice yeti have to disagree with something....some peole when multitabling become a losing player(me for instance)..oki onlytried freerolls but thats hard enough so with$ onth eline i think it be harder or at least just as tough

were all at a different learning stage and i have lots to learn yet i can beat some peopel even now with my very limited knowledge

Arty good advice also I am good at multitasking on a computer but not for poker i tseems well not yet

if a table wa s playing really slowly i could try 2 and it be better as even if i drop a certain % ROI i willl gain fpp and theres some videos on her ei would like to see that are currently locked
 
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Sun Jun 16, 2013, 06:32 AM
(#16)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
If you're confident in your game than multi tabling makes a lot of sense rather than moving up but both can work hand in hand. Multi tabling spreads the variance but also the further you move up, (usually) the better the opponent so it makes more sense adding more tables rather than swimming with players as good or better than you.

Many of the same opponents will be playing a level higher. Table select, table select and table select some more. Tablescan turbo is excellent in this respect.

I played a lot of Limit STTs around a year ago. 13% ROI in 7,000 games most of which was at the $1.50 level. The player pool in these is pretty small however and I found 1 player that was +$10k in profit for the year (and this was May or June when I checked!) that floated from $3.50 - $60 games in this same form. Rather than play these players, I added more tables but it served me good because I can apply my multi tabling skills to any form of poker. I rarely play these games any more but their whale filled and a decent STT strategy wins long term.

@Arty, you're not comfortable with more than 4 but for how long have you tried playing 5+? It's all about practice. If you're a TAG player then at 6 max you'll only be playing around 15-30% of all hands. With 5 tables open that means you'll only have action on 1 or 2 tables. In full ring it will be even less - Your most important button is your fold button. It's just a case of mentally noting what actions you do at each table.

As I said, I start 10+ STTs/ SnGs at a time but come payout stage I've only around 4-5 remaining. You can't do this in cash but there is a sweet spot for anyone where you can keep full concentration and remember what actions you take at each table. Madmike mentioned how he got there and that's also how I got there. 16 tables was a bit much for me but I'll get there eventually.

There is also many programs like Tablescan Turbo, TableNinja and free autohotkey scripts that are found on 2p2 that will help your game.

HTH, good thread.
 
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Sun Jun 16, 2013, 03:43 PM
(#17)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,424
Ovalman when playing let ssay a lot of tables ....and ive never done it so forgive my ignorance...after how long is your head totally smashed?

I think after an hour or less i would need tolie down in a dark room for several hours(im being serious here)

also you made a very god point rather than moving up into tougher playing buyin should add table

guess im not that confident in my game yet ..im partly but do find 2 tables a real struggle..to make a profit i mean
 
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Sun Jun 16, 2013, 04:05 PM
(#18)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
I start a load of games and play them to their conclusion. My head is never smashed unlike ?cash players?

Guess it's all practice.
 
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Sun Jun 16, 2013, 05:33 PM
(#19)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
Ovalman when playing let ssay a lot of tables ....and ive never done it so forgive my ignorance...after how long is your head totally smashed?
I try and take a break at least once an hour, but my cash game sessions are nearly always less than 2 hours. I can't focus for much longer.
During PSOSOP, there have been times when I've had at least one table going constantly for 7 hours or more (thank god for the 5 minute breaks!), and I lose concentration, which leads to poor decisions. Some people (particularly younger players) are simply better at remaining focused.
Don't force your brain to something it's not capable of doing. Treat it like a muscle. If you wanted to run a marathon, you'd start by jogging for a mile a day, and then gradually increase your stamina till you can cope with 5 miles or ten miles. Multitabling for hours is something you need to build up to gradually.
Some of us will never be marathon multitablers. You just have to accept your limitations and do what feels right for you.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Jun 16, 2013, 08:04 PM
(#20)
MadMike261's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I try and take a break at least once an hour, but my cash game sessions are nearly always less than 2 hours. I can't focus for much longer.
During PSOSOP, there have been times when I've had at least one table going constantly for 7 hours or more (thank god for the 5 minute breaks!), and I lose concentration, which leads to poor decisions. Some people (particularly younger players) are simply better at remaining focused.
Don't force your brain to something it's not capable of doing. Treat it like a muscle. If you wanted to run a marathon, you'd start by jogging for a mile a day, and then gradually increase your stamina till you can cope with 5 miles or ten miles. Multitabling for hours is something you need to build up to gradually.
Some of us will never be marathon multitablers. You just have to accept your limitations and do what feels right for you.
I agree on this. Start slowly and build it up over time.

I mainly play cash games, but during the weekends I try and sneak in a few MTT's (big 11, sunday storm etc).
When I play tournaments the 5 min breaks keep me going for hours without going tired.

For cash games I just play until I start feeling tired / start losing focus / tilt (win or lose tilt).
This is usually between 60 - 150 minutes. Then I take a break, get a drink, walk around for a bit.

If I plan for a long grinding day I will make a shedule with jobs during breaks (shopping, cooking, eating, laundry, etc). This helps me endure the longer days (a long day for me is 5+ hours at the cash tables).
 

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