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Why do you stake? Why do you ask for stakes?

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Why do you stake? Why do you ask for stakes? - Fri Jun 21, 2013, 05:31 AM
(#1)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I've been thinking more and more about this since the 'Bank of Timex' thing happened. If you aren't aware of that discussion it centred around Mike McDonald demonstrating, or attempting to, the horrible deals that stakers can end up agreeing to either because o the way an arrangement is presented or they don't do due diligence. The players in question offer mark up prices that don't fairly reflect their true talent or expected value in the tournament. Many can only play the event if they sell most of the package meaning they are effectively freerolling.

For some of course, where they actually hold an edge on the field, the MU is fair.

It got m to thinking about staking players here and elsewhere and why I would or could do it.

When I look at some of the players I have had the opportunity to stake, look at their graphs, watch them play, I just think it offers horrible value for money. They value their game too highly. Potentially they are lying, perhaps to themselves and as a result to others too. They misrepresent themselves in order to play games with other people's money.

I've staked people and with moderate success and some failures too, including someone who stole the money, but I've done it because I thought in the long run it as +EV and tha I would make money.

With other people I know it is a benevolent act.

Do people look at who they are staking an what they can expect to get out of it?

Why do you stake? Why do you ask for stakes?
 
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Fri Jun 21, 2013, 06:57 AM
(#2)
Prohorse3's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 610
since we got in a fairly nice swap off words in the other topic ill reply to you here aswell

Why i stake people:

I stake people because i see potential profit without having to spend my own time in it, because i cant or dont want too.
The only time i need to invest is looking up the player his stats to have a reasonable idea what he has accomplished and can accomplish.

Or like you allready said because im kind enough to give others a chance (benevolent), for example i recently got staked by PinoyWonder i lost most of the stake which surely wasnt my intention ended up with my agreements that if i lost alot id pay back 50% of the stake.
When i was playing the stake i also ended up reading his blog to build a BR from $0,
so i have now without having done any research on PinoyWonder his stats or ability to give him the chance to win some money for me with an $11 stake.

Why i ask for stakes:

I ask for stakes either because i dont have the funds at that time, i wish to play outside my BR when feeling good, to give other people a chance to profit from my games and gain reputation and offcourse this reason seems obvious to make money for myself.

It also gives me a higher morale when i play positively for someone then just myself, in my case (im a terrible Bankroller) it also keeps me in check what i am allowed to play not lower not higher i asked to play this so i will play that and nothing else.

Adding to the higher morale when playing for someone ends up positively its good for my (your) reputation,
and you can perhaps ask for higher stakes you might not be able to afford but people are willing to invest in you.

Hope this makes sense to you
Regards,
Prohorse3

Last edited by Prohorse3; Fri Jun 21, 2013 at 08:49 PM.. Reason: lol removed either from a sentece it had either either in it
 
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Fri Jun 21, 2013, 11:56 AM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
In daily life I tend to follow the maxim "Never a lender or borrower be", so I never expected to get involved in staking or being staked, but I've been involved in a few deals now and have had no problems.

The main reasons I've bought shares in others are:
* I trust and support the person to whom I've sent money.
* The deal seemed to offer reasonably good value, so I expect to make a few cents here and there. (I'd generally avoid any offer that involves markup unless I'm sure the player has a significant edge on the field he is playing against).
* Sending money in a few different directions spreads out the variance.
* I enjoy a good sweat. Whether I'm railing someone on the tables, or just sending them good vibes, it's a fun sideline.

I've sold 50% of my action a couple of times with no markup and the reasons were:
* It builds community spirit, as "we're all in this together".
* It gives me additional focus, as I'm more likely to play my A-game when I have investors to please.
* It serves as a "safety blanket" if I happen to hit a bad patch of variance. I'm not going broke if I only have to pay 50% of the buy-ins, and my backers can clearly afford to lose a few cents when I run bad.

I'm very skeptical of random posters in the staking forum. I won't be sending money to anyone I haven't seen posting before, and I will look up their past results if available. I like to think of PSO members as my buddies, so if they have demonstrated the ability to string a sentence together and show a modicum of poker savvy, I'm happy to transfer a couple of dollars to help them get started.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Fri Jun 21, 2013, 12:33 PM
(#4)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
I have stacked a few players here on PSO, I enjoy the sweat of playing the high level games (good luck in the WSOP Dave), Or because I reconise the stake as a way to spread a bit of community unity (examples Artysmokes offer EdFreemans offer or marvinsytan offer and others people i see day in day out contributing on the forums and working on there games.

Why would i ask for a stske - to play at a higher level or spread the variance. I haven't and don't plan to ask for a stake as i don't want the pressure of playing with someone elses money, if i ever improve i would reconsider.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 05:22 AM
(#5)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Thanks for the replies.

I guess I can kind of grasp the social aspect even if I don't think that is a great reason on its own for staking/being staked. I'm trying to rationalise why I stake people or why I don't stake people too.

I guess I need to relax myself a bit more about it, within reason, but seeing losing players offering mark-up deals or offering what would be a backdoor mark-up deal (You guys pay 100% of the entry fee bu ill take a slice of any profits despite the fact I have no monetary investment to worry about) still just seems so horrible but there never seems to be any shortage of people wanting to, in my eyes, give money away.

I'd encourage anyone who hasn't read the thread over on 2+2 to do so. It's interesting. Search 'Bank of Timex' on that site to get the thread.
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 05:52 AM
(#6)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
The problem with staking markup is the same with rake, you always think you can beat it if you are good enough but most of the people can't.
The thing with bank of timex is that it can't be achieved legaly, so it will probably stay as an idea, although I personally think it would be good for the poker community to not pay huge markeup's.
But it seems as an utopia for the moment since everyone (including me) can request a huge markup without necesserily being hugely profitable.
Mike Mcdonald's ''Bank of timex'' interview on 2+2 pokercast discussing it: http://pokercast.twoplustwo.com/

Last edited by GamblingProp; Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:54 AM..
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 05:59 AM
(#7)
Prohorse3's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 610
i see now what you meant and im not so well educated with markups, so i cant give much of an opnion or example (tried thinking about something just couldnt lack of knowledge in that department for now)
 
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Staking - Sat Jun 22, 2013, 06:01 AM
(#8)
brettnz's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 377
I stake for two reasons (1) Profit (2) To show support and for the fun of the sweat
Its rare that a stake in someone combines these two reasons,so my first bit of advice to anyone wanting to stake a player is think and decide WHY you are staking them. If for the 1st reason then approach it as you would any investment and do your due diligence. If for the 2nd pay your money enjoy the ride but NEVER put in more than you can afford to loose ,remember that in this case profit was never your reason for the stake and any gained is a bonus.
To those looking to be staked DONT ask to get staked as you bottom out and variance has taken its price , or at least dont ask me to stake you.Im not here to prop you in the bad times only !
This best time imo is as you are on the rise or a steady run, Good for those staking you and good for you as staking is sound bankroll logic if correctly applied and fairly set.
NEVER EVER get involved if you dont feel that you are BOTH getting a fair deal.Because thats when people may feel justified in ripping you off if they think they are being ripped off.
ALWAYS make sure you ask and are aware of any other staking deals the person is now committed to. They may already have sold far to much of themselves to make it worth their while to give it their all.I know of a Vegas Reg who often sold 200 to 300% of BuyIn ! "lost " of course so didnt have to worry about payouts and stiill "won" Complete Scam !
But staking can be fun and profitable but for a profit it is not for the weak hearted.
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 06:06 AM
(#9)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Do people look at who they are staking an what they can expect to get out of it?
I would expect this to be the case. Sellers can help by providing links to their form and explain why they want to sell and why they feel a particular mark up or backing deal is value for stakers.

Why do you stake?
I would stake someone if I thought it was value, because essentially I am playing poker vicariously through someone with a perceived edge, without having to spend the time playing.
I think it also allows players here to put a few dollars towards a tournament they wish they could play but cannot afford to.

Why do you ask for stakes?
Reduce variance, bankroll management and reduce the need to satellite into bigger events.


Many of the staking deals offered here are unclear, do not include enough information, are not good value. That said I think it is good that there is the opportunity for staking here that is moderated.
Hopefully the interest around the bank of Timex, will make everyone a little more savvy. Personally, I would be reluctant to stake someone who is not still playing with a chunk of their own money and for someone to be offering a mark up of >1.2:1 I would expect hard evidence of both the player's skill and the softness of the tourney/s.
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 12:15 PM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
I just had a look at the 'Bank of Timex' thread and a few of Mike's tweets. I'm stunned that there are guys out there that are non-Pros that are trying to sell action with a markup of 1.6 or more. I'm even more stunned than some people are stupid enough to buy at that price!
It's like someone saying "I'll give you a dollar if you give me $1.60". You'd have to be completely nutso to take a deal like that!

When thinking about staking someone, I have two key pieces of advice.

* Read the small print.
* Do the math.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 02:45 PM
(#11)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
It's like someone saying "I'll give you a dollar if you give me $1.60". You'd have to be completely nutso to take a deal like that!
RE Your first point, that's not really the case, that would only be the case if they broke even, for 1:1.6 to be fair [and there are some pros where it may be +EV] it suggests the player believes they have at least a 60% Return on investment (ROI) on the game/s in question, otherwise it would be a nutso deal indeed.

In case the math is not obvious ... a mark up of 1.1:1 means that the deal is only worth taking if the player has an expected ROI of 10% or more, 1.2:1 -> 20% etc

It means that anytime someone on here sells at a markup or wants to keep a percentage of winnings, they should be a winning player and often given the mark up they should have a considerable edge.

What Bank of Timex also makes clear is that mark ups are often set unreasonably high because people set it in terms of what they think they can charge not in relation to their ROI, but in terms of what they think they can charge. If you think you can charge 1.6:1 you probably would?
[I try and set a fair mark up, to be clear]
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 02:55 PM
(#12)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
My rules in staking someone are as follow:
- You must have at least 50% of your own money involved
- If the number of shares are not all sold, you will buy the rest of the shares and play as per a schedule posted
- You must be playing at least 10 games (compensate for variance)
- You must have at least 100 posts here at PSO
- You must be willing to learn from your mistakes
- You must be an active member (Training sessions, posting, league play, promotions, etc.)
- You are also involved in my stakes (when ever I do one)

OR you are a good friend (like the Tankers...lol)

When asking for a stake, I will mark up. It makes perfect sense since I'm the one investing 10-12 hours and even more to make us money.
I haven't done much asking, I think I did it 3 times (2 SCOOP and 1 live). But the most successful was the TIC Club (twice). This staking had about 30 stakers and 5-8 horses and both times in profit.

Most successful players don`t need to be stake, unless we are talking about big amounts. But PSO is a community with lots of friendly people who are willing to invest or offer their time in playing for others.

As long as it's fun
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 02:56 PM
(#13)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Can anyone who has posted here, who asked for stakes, tell me that they are profitable all time?

Last edited by bhoylegend; Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 03:13 PM..
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 03:53 PM
(#14)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
Can anyone who has posted here, who asked for stakes, tell me that they are profitable all time?
You want to know if I have made a profit from poker (not inc bonuses) ... Yes I have, if I had not then I shouldn't be asking for the kind of stakes I do - SCOOPS, Sunday Majors etc.

When I said that someone should be a winning player in order to be staked, in reality I would stake someone who has proven themselves as a winner over a decent period to date and I would not stake a winner who is only in profit cos they binked 1 or 2.
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 05:32 PM
(#15)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
Can anyone who has posted here, who asked for stakes, tell me that they are profitable all time?
Thus far, I've been profitable in cash games (about 150,000 hands tracked with HEM) and profitable in tourneys (about 50,000 hands), so I think I can say I'm a winning player, but I would add that - in tournaments especially - I couldn't give you a very good estimate of my overall ROI until I've played at least a million hands.
If someone was thinking of staking me, I'm happy for them to look me up on a tracking site, but it should be obvious that my volume is way too small for the results to be "trustworthy". Anyone can go on a heater.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 05:46 PM
(#16)
Prohorse3's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 610
Neutral i play some i lose some i win some!

think my profits over 3 years are between $100-$200 after my win in feb of 1.1k cashed in $800 of the 1.2k i had on my account then and i havent been active alot last year or all 3 years.

Last edited by Prohorse3; Sat Jun 22, 2013 at 05:51 PM..
 
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Sat Jun 22, 2013, 06:07 PM
(#17)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I couldn't give you a very good estimate of my overall ROI until I've played at least a million hands. If someone was thinking of staking me, I'm happy for them to look me up on a tracking site, but it should be obvious that my volume is way too small for the results to be "trustworthy". Anyone can go on a heater.
This is why ROI is so difficult to estimate in order to set a mark up that everyone can agree is "fair" and why it is therefore easier for someone to set their mark up in line with what others offer. If say we need a million hands to get a fair picture of true ROI, the issue is tournaments played and our skill level will vary over a million hands. We want to set mark up in line with our estimated ROI for the staked tourneys in question. Where they are annual live tourneys or part of a series like SCOOP this estimation becomes a bit like speculation.
 

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