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What do you make of this

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What do you make of this - Sun Jun 23, 2013, 02:52 PM
(#1)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485


I got no reads on villain he limps pre so i figure he had small pairs flop comes i cbet and he raises really big, kinda looks like a bluff to me so i call then he bets small on the turn which was either a bluff or he wanted me to jam over the top so i called again hoping to get to showdown.

He was saying in chat call i got KK lol, I think i ran into AA or even 55 maybe not sure.
 
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Sun Jun 23, 2013, 03:28 PM
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TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
I got no reads on villain he limps pre so i figure he had small pairs...
Since that's not a read, it must be a hunch. I try to avoid those.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
flop comes i cbet and he raises really big,...
The raise is just a bit over 3x their total bet. Within a range I'd consider normal.


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Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
kinda looks like a bluff to me so i call ...
Another hunch? Maybe he has JJ or TT and wants to know if you have the Ace.


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Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
then he bets small on the turn which was either a bluff or he wanted me to jam over the top so i called again hoping to get to showdown.
A value bet?


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Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
He was saying in chat call i got KK lol, I think i ran into AA or even 55 maybe not sure.
Of course poker players never lie.
 
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Sun Jun 23, 2013, 04:01 PM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Its hardly a value bet why would you choose such a small sizing after betting so big, i think he was either bluffing or getting fancy, i think he was more than likely getting fancy though.As for my hunches well they have made me alot of money because im normally right when people take weird lines.

Theres aload of times where people have jammed the flop after ive 3bet pre and all they have is a gut shot, i think i got caught out once on hunches and ran into a flopped set.
 
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Sun Jun 23, 2013, 04:05 PM
(#4)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
You know looking at that hand agian he raised 3x on the flop he might do that with a draw then he bet small on the turn hoping i dont raise then jams the river because he knows im not calling.
 
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Sun Jun 23, 2013, 05:44 PM
(#5)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
You know looking at that hand agian he raised 3x on the flop he might do that with a draw then he bet small on the turn hoping i dont raise then jams the river because he knows im not calling.
I had blocking bet also, but I guess I lost it in editing.
 
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Sun Jun 23, 2013, 05:47 PM
(#6)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
You know looking at that hand agian he raised 3x on the flop he might do that with a draw then he bet small on the turn hoping i dont raise then jams the river because he knows im not calling.
I had blocking bet also, but I guess I lost it in editing.

I have learned to be wary of bets that look like they want a call against good players. That maybe giving too much credit here.

And if he's got you crushed, a small bet can be for value when checked to.
 
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Sun Jun 23, 2013, 05:58 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
If you played this hand how would you play it? I think i might of raised the turn with AK but because there was a fair few hands including AK i decided not to, im not sure what would be more profitable in the long run folding the hand or raising it in that spot.

Just thought i would add if he did bet half pot i would of folding AQ knowing im beat but like i said his bet was so small i think he is either getting trppy or was drawing i had no reads really to play that hand from the flop, so i guess i spewed 70c or w/e it was.

Last edited by mike2198; Sun Jun 23, 2013 at 06:03 PM..
 
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Sun Jun 23, 2013, 07:54 PM
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Dodgy007's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 150
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In all just shows Power Of Position

Last edited by Dodgy007; Sun Jun 23, 2013 at 08:13 PM..
 
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Sun Jun 23, 2013, 09:51 PM
(#9)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Either 3-bet the flop raise to $1-1.20 or take the weird line of call the flop then donk the turn.

If it's juicy table the villain was on a wait list a while so the weird line might slow them down. If not I am most likely behind and it's time to bail.

If it was a fairly new table or not particularly active I'd lean to the flop 4-bet.
 
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Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:50 AM
(#10)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Was zoom what make you think he was a reg?

To say he was on a waiting list you must think hes good or i butchered the hand lol either way i think i like the raise on the turn though i think hes a fancy player with aces or had a draw.

Another reason why i dont think hes a reg is because he either limped aces or some sort of suited connector, i know nits limp 55 but i also know they like slow playing made hands then spaz out on later streets sometimes even check the flop and turn.

I think if i raised the flop he would call with a draw anyway and i wouldnt want to put any more money in the pot with just AQ and i was out of position, he might of even jammed all in so i dont know its something i dont see very often.
 
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Mon Jun 24, 2013, 12:35 PM
(#11)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
This is quite a tricky one. When he limps, I'm usually putting him on a small/medium pair that's going set-mining or a suited connector/ace, so raising it up pre-flop to charge him for speculating is standard. Betting the flop seems standard too. You're pretty much always ahead on the flop, but villains will often peel one off if they have a hand like 99, and certainly hands like Axs, hoping you'll give up on the turn.

When villain raises the flop, he's repping such a narrow range, that it does indeed look bluffy. He might be going crazy with 99 or a worse ace than yours, so sometimes you're way ahead. I think he's always slowplaying quads or top boat with AA. The only other hands that raise for value are A5s and 65s. Fast-playing those hands would be a great way to get value from your likely hand (AK-AJ).
I can't find a fold on the flop, because villain's range is so polarized (boats and trips for value, underpairs as a bluff) so I don't blame you for calling. The turn bet is small enough to continue, but it certainly looks like a "sucker bet" trying to get a call. You're kind of lucky you didn't spike a queen on the turn or river, because it would be much harder to get away. When villain bombs the river, I don't think he ever has a worse hand than yours. Even AJ and AT sucked out. He'll have trips or a boat most of the time, so it's an easy fold otr.


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Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:02 PM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Hi Mike,

I agree with Joe on the ranging... in fact I don't ever think you can range him on small pairs only even with any type of read. I don't think there exists poker players who only limp in with small pairs. Even a nit who likes to sneak in to set mine, will also have hands like AJo and KQs in their limping range a as well.

I would consider checking the flop here, as it seems hard to get value from a lot of his range, basically everything that isn't, Ax or a flush draw is folding (or the occasional 65s or quads). Certainly we have no reason to expect 3 streets of value here from worse hands, so checking to feign like the ace bothers us might be the best way to get 2 streets, or 1. Like he might fold a small pair to a c-bet, but take a stab representing the ace if we check. He might (will) fold broadway hands to a cbet, but might make a similar stab and/or turn a pair that he'll continue with.

There are very few better hands in his range on the flop here, and quite frankly non of them make sense to me. The are:

AA: Limp-call pre with AA? Then raise the flop with top boat? Wat? This is so wildly unlikely for a line imo that we probably won't see it in a thousand similar trials.

AK: Same thoughts as AA above, although this one is at least a bit more plausible. If he plays AK this passively pre though then a flop raise would surprise me.

55: This is the most plausible of all preflop, but there is only 1 combo of this and many (most) players don't raise the flop with quads, they call to slow play. So this is also unlikely.

Suited cards with a 5: These are more likely than the 3 above, but again sometimes we get slow played on the flop.

So I think there's enough doubt here for me that he's on a worse ace and overplaying it, or a flush draw (as well as the occasional move). AT and AJ are legit concerns on the river, but tbh I would probably put him on in the turn. The ranging above + small turn bet doesn't look very strong to me, and I think he will call off with Ax if playing it this way and don't care much if he calls or folds a flush draw to this action.


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Mon Jun 24, 2013, 02:07 PM
(#13)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Cheers guys for all your help with this hand, at Dave when you say that villain cant have AA are you telling me that these sort of players will always slow play the flop and turn when there so passive preflop?

I never actually thought of it like that if i did i think i would of shipped the turn like you said, i never slow play my boats or quads i would just raise there cbet hoping they hit an ace so i guess i havent picked up on everyones lines yet.
 
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Mon Jun 24, 2013, 03:19 PM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Cheers guys for all your help with this hand, at Dave when you say that villain cant have AA are you telling me that these sort of players will always slow play the flop and turn when there so passive preflop?
It's not impossible technically, but is a pretty long shot parlay. It's very rare to begin with for someone to limp/call with AA preflop to begin with, and if someone is this passive they are almost certainly slow playing when they flop a full house.


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