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What would you do?

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What would you do? - Mon Nov 25, 2002, 09:26 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
Final table NLHE tournament. 9 left. Top 6 paid. $1300 first, down to $150 for 6th (basically your buy in back).

I have $10,000. Blinds are $2,000/$4,000.

I am on the button with A5o. All fold to me. I have already looked at SB and BB. No obvious signs either way whether a big hand or not. I guess neither has much.

I go all in. I get beat by garbage, but this is not the reason for the post.

What would you have done?

I figure the only hands to fear are a PP and a bigger Ace.

The worst odds I could have if no PP or bigger Ace are 7 to 5 in my favor. (1st and 4th highest vs. 2nd and 3rd highest).

thanks,

Randy


PS Anyone know the odds of not being up against a PP or a bigger Ace with two hands left?
 
Old
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Mon Nov 25, 2002, 09:58 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
What stack position are you in? How big are the blinds stacks? Those things would come into my decision - but me, being the tight wimp that I am, I probably fold - I have a lot more hands to play before I go bust, and ace rag ain't what I want to bust on.

Hazy
 
Old
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Mon Nov 25, 2002, 10:34 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
SB has about 3 times my stack, BB has 2 times my stack.

Remember I have $10K, and within 7 hands I will have to post $6K of that.


Randy
 
Old
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Mon Nov 25, 2002, 11:29 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
Still a tricky situation - at that point in a tourney, you're almost relegated to going with any ace, two face or pocket pair - and given that it was folded to you on the button, pushing all in is not a bad move.

Me, however, I'd probably wait. I'd rather push in with two face or a pocket pair or a bigger ace, then push in with ace rag. I'd take my chances and hope that one of the next 6 deals hit me.

Aaron
 
Old
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Mon Nov 25, 2002, 11:32 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
I'd a gone all in. You want to pick up the dead money and if you don't, you want to see all 5 cards on the board, not just the flop, with a hand like A5o. What was the rag hand that beat ya? JT or something?

j.a.m.
 
Old
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Tue Nov 26, 2002, 09:01 AM
(#6)
Deleted user
The BB's T8o won. Gotta love it, that he called with half his chips.


Randy
 
Old
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Tue Nov 26, 2002, 09:42 AM
(#7)
Deleted user
Can't say I wouldn't have gone all-in there.

But I do shy away from making any type move/raise from the button since the blinds tend to think "steal...steal...steal" and that really takes a bite out of my two ways to win theory. Basically, one of the blinds seems to call far too often leaving me with having to outright win or outplay my opponent. Note that you gotta have chips left to outplay the guy (possibly a delayed steal).

But you gotta like A5 vs 10-8 so in this case I would look at the play as a good one, but with poor results.

Later,
Wendell
 
Old
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Tue Nov 26, 2002, 12:04 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Completely agree with wstwst! Obviously you can't raise for less, because it would only leave you with $2000. Just bad result.

But, I also agree that you are almost guaranteed to be called by one or both of the blinds. Hard for BB not to call you! Your raise makes $16,000 in pot (antes as well?). BB only needs to put in $6000 more, so he is getting great odds to call no matter what you have! late in tourney for BB too, so needs to make a move. It is rare for an allin from the button not to be called by one of the two blinds this late in a tourney in my experience.

That is where wstwst's advice is most excellent! Regardless of your cards (obviously not rags), I prefer to make last stand all-in from 3 or 4 off button. This way I know 3 or 4 players are gone, but it increases chance that SB and BB will give me credit for a big hand. Really not huge difference between Ace rag, and two faces or even K rag when you factor in the probability that the blinds will most certainly discount all button raises as likely steal attempts.

Just another thought, Randy...

How about you call, then push it in after the flop? Know this is my recurring theme (with AK), but look at the likely outcomes. Biggest downside is may also pick up SB, whereas SB may fold to allin with BB left to act -- and this downside is considerable. But, if Sb folds, BB will either raise you your last $6000 -- same result as going allin -- or just check and take off the flop.

The beauty of just calling, is that it immedialy puts SB and BB on the defensive -- they see you are short-stacked -- and if you have been playing tight, aggressive poker (like I know you do), they will at least consider the possibility that you have a big hand and are trying to double or triple up. Very common for people to slowplay Ace big and AA KK and QQ when money is so shallow in order to seduce other player(s) into pot.

Then follow the flop with an allin bet. The downside is BB (or SB) if they call, may have fluked a pair or more -- so be it. You have as good as a chance of hitting the flop as they do, and neither of you has a better than 50% chance! If they call when you both miss, and then beat you on turn or river, so be it -- they are probably player who would have called you all-in before the flop, because there hand was big enough then, and they have some gamble in them. You are still no worse.

Have done this in tourneys with mixed results -- but let's face it, pushing all-in late with anything requires luck!! Just ask Depraved and Huk -- both way behind on critical hands and won. I know that most people here love the all-in, and they do in real tourneys. That is why this approach has at least given them pause -- not many players are used to this course of action, so it makes them think. And if you make them think, they might make a mistake. Just looking for other creative ways to outplay opponents, because the only thing for sure is that going all-in with shallow money leads to coin tosses. I like better odds! Maybe this helps.

Tim
 
Old
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Tue Nov 26, 2002, 12:57 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Randy,

A lot of great posting before but a couple of thoughts.

a) you went in with the best hand. (Don't be results oriented :P ). Even if you had a better hand that Ace rag chances are that you would have lost the hand with his call anyway as he hit the cards and you didn't. Frankly, I would want this type of call everytime that I have Ace rag on the button. . It doesn't necessarily mean that I would like it if I lose ithough. :wink:

b) Did you know that he was a BB type defender kind of player? If you did, they pushing in with this hand might be a mistake. Here Tko's advice is very valuable. Taking players of their automatic knee jerk reactions will reward you greatly.

Next time, you'll get him.

CH
 
Old
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Tue Nov 26, 2002, 09:36 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
Randy,

Some great replies to a sticky situation! I especially agree with wstwst, and tko14's further comments. I'm not sure how qualified I am to add to this, but since you asked...

Maybe I'm kind of a wimp, but I would never have gone all in with that hand, against stacks of that size, unless I were in imminent danger of blinding out (well, I guess I shouldn't say never, since Caro's Law of Loose Wiring sometimes kicks in). Within spitting distance of 1st place, I would probably have either called or folded. There are plenty of better hands out there (though, as you said, you'd better catch one soon). If you pair, you either have AA, rag kicker, or a pair of rags, A kicker. While your opponent made what I consider a foolish call, both of his cards beat your rag, which leaves you with pairing the A, or winning with high card. Even on the button, I never play a naked A with a kicker less than T. I also try not to play cards that can't stretch to a straight.

Anyway, I also agree that I give a lot more respect to a raise a position or 3 off the button than from the button itself. Blinds that high are well worth stealing, and well worth defending.

Ultimately, your opponent just got lucky.

Last - don't quote me on any of this!


Dan
"Windlord"
 
Old
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Tue Nov 26, 2002, 10:48 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
Thanks for all the responses. My biggest consideration was stack size at that point. Thinking I would be down to $4K in 7 hands, and just trying to steal a round.


Randy
 
Old
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Wed Nov 27, 2002, 03:02 AM
(#12)
Deleted user
A5 v 2 random hands. No question about pushing all-in. Expect to be called by a wide range of hands, and expect to be favourite a lot of the time. Though some people may still fold and you win uncontested.

With regards tko's suggestion of limping in, because it will confuse opponents, using the explanation that a lot of players limp in with big hands on shallow money. I disagree. Limping is not a good thing. As TKO pointed out, the button would be expecting to be called if they moved-in, so why would they decide to slowplay a big hand? Where's the logic?

If a good player limped in on the button, in this spot, with me in the BB. Their limp wouldn't confuse me. I move-in on the flop regardless of my hand or the flop. What have they gained by limping? They beat me if they slowplayed a big hand. They beat me if they hit the flop. So what, they would have beat me anyway as I would have called a preflop all-in. However, I gain as I will not have to win a showdown everytime, like I would if the button moved in preflop. I win more often and I lose less often. The button limping is a mistake. It just gives me the initiative.
 
Old
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Wed Nov 27, 2002, 09:57 AM
(#13)
Deleted user
Agree on Noodles comments on the button limping, particularly in this instance. There are very few times I will limp on the button, usually it's when I want to do a pokermats type move, all have folded to me, and when the blinds check check to me on the flop, I can make a bluff bet and steal the pot - but I'll seldom do this, unlike some people.



Hazy
 
Old
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Wed Nov 27, 2002, 03:52 PM
(#14)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehazyone
Agree on Noodles comments on the button limping
Ouch. I just banged my head when I fainted.
 
Old
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Mon Jun 20, 2005, 01:03 PM
(#15)
Deleted user
Bump
 
Old
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Mon Jun 20, 2005, 02:12 PM
(#16)
Deleted user
I think you made the correct play, true the blinds will likely believe you to be on a steal and call with an inferior hand but if your short stacked close to the money,isn't that what you want? So you got out drawn, remember this; if it wasn't for the luck involved with the game we couldn't find inferior players to play against us for money. Sometimes you make the right play and lose, if it wasn't for that fact, fish would stop playing us for money or they would learn to play better faster, it's these suck outs that fish remember and it's why they keep playing us. You wouldn't challenge tiger woulds to a golf game for 100 dollars a stroke would you? What about boxing mike tyson for a couple grand. There's almost no chance you'd win and there's no reason to believe otherwise.
All you can do in poker is get your money in with the right odds, in the long run that becomes profit, in the short run you might get out drawn but that just might incourage a fish to believe he can play great poker, that just keeps him around longer to lose more money to all of us. It's what i like to call catch and release. Every time a fish gets off the hook it just gives him more incentive to bite again next time. It's a win win. I think I'm gonna right a post about that. Anyway, i think it's pretty clear you made the right play. better luck next time.
 
Old
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Mon Jun 20, 2005, 02:27 PM
(#17)
Deleted user
I'm all-in quicker then a maniac with bottom pair and a crap kicker.
 
Old
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Mon Jun 20, 2005, 03:30 PM
(#18)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshfield
I'm all-in quicker then a maniac with bottom pair and a crap kicker.
In other words, you play it like you normally would? :chuckle:
 
Old
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Mon Jun 20, 2005, 03:33 PM
(#19)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapiW
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshfield
I'm all-in quicker then a maniac with bottom pair and a crap kicker.
In other words, you play it like you normally would? :chuckle:
Correct so you should just fold your KK because it's no goooooot here.
 
Old
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Mon Jun 20, 2005, 03:54 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshfield
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapiW
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshfield
I'm all-in quicker then a maniac with bottom pair and a crap kicker.
In other words, you play it like you normally would? :chuckle:
Correct so you should just fold your KK because it's no goooooot here.
Your point? ppK is not good ever. Evil hand! :roll:


I push here too. Actually, I probably would of pushed a few hands earlier but, definately push here. I also like TKO's idea of limping in but, I tend to believe that I would be put all-in anyway by one of the stacks pre-flop.
 

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