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This is the last time i ever play no limit cash

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This is the last time i ever play no limit cash - Fri Jun 28, 2013, 10:36 PM
(#1)
nowhereman09's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 29


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Sat Jun 29, 2013, 01:20 AM
(#2)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi nowhereman09,

Please don't go. I'd like to play you at 10NL. Bit of a sick run out but that happens sometimes.

Maybe ask the hand analysis people to look at the hand to see if you made any mistakes.

 
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Sat Jun 29, 2013, 07:19 PM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
I fold pre-flop. KT isn't strong enough to open UTG in a 6-max game.

If I made the mistake of opening KT, I'd snap-fold to the 3-bet. Playing bloated pots out of position without the betting lead is a good way of going busto.


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Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:04 AM
(#4)
nowhereman09's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 29
its not about what i had if had Aces or kings i would have still lost this hand
the cards you raise with are not that importaant

once i have raised to 30c from under the gun im 100% of the time calling a reraise for an extra 20c even if i had decided to raise with 7,2 off im not letting everyone around me know i raise under the gun with weak hands

personally although K10 isnt a good hand utg and i am fully aware of that
i dont think i made any mistakes here i got all my money in while ahead but lost to runner runner

anyways as i said no more no limit cash

p.s raising with it was no mistake


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Sun Jun 30, 2013, 06:15 AM
(#5)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
That's why we play to a bankroll so we can take these hits.

I agree playing KTo utg even in a 6 max is not profitable. If you've Holdem Manager the filter all those hands you've played that hand and other "pretty" hands like QJs from early position and you'lll see why.

As to his re-raise. I usually take a note of raises like this because they usually signifies a monster. Take a note on what he raises with and in what position. You will make money from him if he gives away tells.

Never say never If you've read my Limit Holdem thread you'll see that I put a bit of effort into learning the game and my results have improved significantly. Like you I don't play NL but I'll move there one day.
 
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Sun Jun 30, 2013, 09:25 AM
(#6)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman09 View Post
once i have raised to 30c from under the gun im 100% of the time calling a reraise for an extra 20c even if i had decided to raise with 7,2 off im not letting everyone around me know i raise under the gun with weak hands...
First, KT is a fold 90%+ of the time and never limp. Although open raise then fold is fishy, saying never is a bit of an overstatement against an aware opponent. There is nothing wrong with advertising to set a trap occasionally.

Against someone who'll min 3-bet K3s, it won't work.
 
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Sun Jun 30, 2013, 09:59 AM
(#7)
nowhereman09's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 29
well ofcourse your right it depends on table the feel i have of the table the person reraising me and such and the size of the reraise


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Sun Jun 30, 2013, 12:15 PM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
I'm afraid to say that just about everything you wrote in post #4 indicates you don't have the skills to be playing 10NL, so quitting is probably a good idea from a bankroll point of view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman09 View Post
the cards you raise with are not that importaant
The cards you hold might not be important to Phil Ivery or Tom Dwan, but for everyone else, they are very important. To pretend otherwise is frankly ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman09 View Post
once i have raised to 30c from under the gun im 100% of the time calling a reraise for an extra 20c even if i had decided to raise with 7,2 off im not letting everyone around me know i raise under the gun with weak hands
How does folding to a 3-bet reveal that you have a weak hand? If I open with 88 or AQ UTG, I'm often folding to a 3-bet. Those aren't weak hands, and my opponents don't get to see them. If you call a raise and go to showdown then villains will see what you had. So if you raise-call with KT (or 72), and go to showdown, villains will be able to take notes on you. If I was on this table, I would be taking notes like "Raised KTo UTG, called 3-bet OOP". Notes like this would help me to exploit you, because I'd know that you raise with junk and call reraises OOP with junk. Just from this one hand, I'd be able to tell you are a weak player, precisely because you didn't fold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman09 View Post
p.s raising with it was no mistake
If you had tracking software, you'd be able to look up your long term results with KT, but I can tell you right now. This hand does not make money. Raising KT UTG is a mistake. Calling a 3-bet with KT OOP is a big mistake.

The bad beat you suffered was brutal, but it would never happen to a winning 10NL player, because he wouldn't be seeing the flop in a 3-bet pot with KT in the first place!


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Mon Jul 01, 2013, 03:21 AM
(#9)
nowhereman09's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 29
yes arty you are correct i do not have the skills to ply at 10nl lmao

you would fold AQ 88 to a reraise when you are getting almost 5-1 odds ?
even against AK i have the odds to now call
so what would you suggest to raise with utg ? AA KK AK because only playing them utg i would write notes that you only raise with premium hands utg but will fold AQ 88 to a reraise allowing me to exploit your play at the poker table

the size of this 3 bet is what is important here and also the player i am playing i know he raises reraises with just about anything i know my K10 is probably behind preflop 90% of the time against others
but when i bet 30 and THIS player reraises it to 50 i am calling it

its not like i do this all the time but i dont like my play to be boring and predictable i like to mix it up and keep the rest of the table guessing
strange coincedence here while looking through poker videos on youtube i came across this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEijq-23Lgw
1:12
i swear i wasnt out looking for this lol but when i seen it this morning i thought if its good enough for him its good enough me


How exactly would you expliot someone you know raises with junk and calls your 3bet?


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Last edited by nowhereman09; Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 04:03 AM..
 
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Mon Jul 01, 2013, 04:55 AM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman09 View Post
you would fold AQ 88 to a reraise when you are getting almost 5-1 odds ?
even against AK i have the odds to now call
so what would you suggest to raise with utg ? AA KK AK because only playing them utg i would write notes that you only raise with premium hands utg but will fold AQ 88 to a reraise allowing me to exploit your play at the poker table
I was talking about folding to 3-bets in general. The immediate pot-odds are largely irrelevant, because you aren't going to see all 5 community cards for the price of the call. Without reads, I usually fold AQ or 88 to a 3-bet because AQ is dominated by AK and QQ+, and 88 won't often have the implied odds to go set-mining. It's also very hard to turn a profit when playing these hands OOP.
To only consider immediate odds is to make a mistake. 32o has 34% equity against AK, and I fold 32o to a minraise even when I'm in position (like every other winning player), because it's not a profitable call. I would hope that you fold 32o in the same situation. The pot odds are much less important than how well your hand plays against ranges. (e.g. If UTG opened, I'd rather call with 76s than KT, because I'd usually have two live cards, and won't get pot-committed if I make a pair).
My UTG raising range is something like 66+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AJo+ which is 9.2% of hands, but I vary it according to table dynamics. Most microstakes players are raising about 10-12% of hands UTG (including all pairs), but I'm more cautious in EP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman09 View Post
the size of this 3 bet is what is important here and also the player i am playing i know he raises reraises with just about anything i know my K10 is probably behind preflop 90% of the time against others
but when i bet 30 and THIS player reraises it to 50 i am calling it

its not like i do this all the time but i dont like my play to be boring and predictable i like to mix it up and keep the rest of the table guessing
You didn't provide any reads/stats, but having seen this hand played out, this villain seems somewhat maniacal. I might consider 4-betting if he is loose enough to 3-bet with K3. Calling is probably the worst option (out of 4-betting, folding and calling), because villain will still have the betting lead and the benefit of position. Indeed, calling raises in general is a losing play.

Something that makes this hand particularly weird is that both you and villain are short-stacked. When you're that short, you should tighten up your ranges, not loosen them. It's simply not profitable to play hands like KT when the effective stack is 33bb, because even if you hit top pair on the flop in a 3-bet pot, you'll be pot-committed with one pair, average kicker, and generally only get action from hands that crush you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman09 View Post
strange coincedence here while looking through poker videos on youtube i came across this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEijq-23Lgw
1:12
i swear i wasnt out looking for this lol but when i seen it this morning i thought if its good enough for him its good enough me
Negreanu can play KTo UTG and make money (or at least he can balance his ranges, so he gets action with his monsters), but I'm not Daniel Negreanu, and I doubt you are his equal either. Go to some of the PSO Live Training sessions and see if trainers would play this hand this way. Felix is quite a loose aggressive player, but I doubt even he plays KT UTG. The stats don't lie. KT is a hand that loses money in EP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman09 View Post
How exactly would you expliot someone you know raises with junk and calls your 3bet?
It would depend on his post-flop tendencies, but I'd generally widen my value 3-betting range, and take him to valuetown when I make a pair. I wouldn't try bluffing him, because his pre-flop behaviour is indicative of calling station tendencies.


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Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 06:17 AM.. Reason: typos
 
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Mon Jul 01, 2013, 06:37 AM
(#11)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
This is exactly why I love playing limit because maniacs like this abound in the game. Limit means I'm not going broke on hands like this (not that I'd play KTo utg) but I am picking up BB/100 by playing strong hands and with position.

To the O/P when the fog clears you might see your mistake. Take Arty's posts as constructive criticism. You will become a better player because of it even though you might feel you were right. Some of my biggest insights into the game have come from posts where I realised I was wrong.
 
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Mon Jul 01, 2013, 09:43 AM
(#12)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
I completely agree with all the advice that's been given in this thread. I play 10nl 6max and my UTG opening range doesn't included KTs let alone KTo. It is far too easily dominated making it very difficult to play OOP. The only table dynamic I would open KT UTG is when:

1) The players who have postion on me are tight and will repsect my EP opening raise
2) I am unlikely to be 3 bet (ties in with point 1)
3) One or both of the blinds are loose passive and will defend with absurdly wide ranges



Edit - Even though I don't agree with playing the hand, or how you played it, it is a pretty sick beat. The guy must have 5-6% equity OTF!


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Last edited by Croyd93; Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 09:47 AM..
 
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Mon Jul 01, 2013, 11:37 AM
(#13)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Hi Nowhereman09,

Congratulations on the Braclet.

Why do you give this hand as a reason for not playing NLHE anymore?
Did you have a read on Villian 1?
As you say having gotten to the flop you did get to have an oppenent put in his stack when behind, which is after all the goal.

Is that a good reason to stop playing? You feel after this hand that as you had 92%
Equaty the pot was yours by right that the chance of the guy with 8% equaty winning should be 100000's to 1.

Ideally this would be a hand example to show people why they should play NLHE, ie look what this guy had see how loose they play, there is money to be made for the observant player.

Hope you relook at your decision and then do what is right for you.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Jul 05, 2013, 10:50 AM
(#14)
frasierbeams's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 145
Firstly , why are you playing 5/10 with $3 ? Furthermore playing KT suited or otherwise under the gun is rarely a profitable play no matter how good you think you are at the game . The min raise , to me , suggests a powerful hand , but this being microstakes I doubt villain was representing a monster . At these stakes most folk will play almost any suited hands or hands with paint regardless of position in my experience . As for villain calling the shove on the flop it shows he clearly is a losing player - but maybe he just plays for fun and doesn't care about equity pot odds and the rest . As others have said this is exactly the type of player that should make you want to continue playing at these stakes if you have the proper bankroll and discipline . But be warned even at microstakes it is still a grind as alot of players will just call , call , call , even when their hand does not merit it but they end up with the winner after hitting a 1-6 outer or something .

Just for the record if you cbet and villain shoves do you call ?

Last edited by frasierbeams; Fri Jul 05, 2013 at 10:53 AM.. Reason: forgot to add this bit
 

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