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Leakbusting

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Leakbusting - Mon Jul 01, 2013, 04:53 PM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
I decided to start this blog to help plug my leaks; I took about 10 days off poker at the end of June because once again poker wasn’t so fun, obviously I was losing. After reading around the forums I decided to order the mental game of poker. Just as the book arrived I read Felix’s blog and it resonated with how I was feeling. I decided that my leaks are the things that are stopping me from moving up and instead of hiding them I should out them openly as it will help me be honest with myself as well as get solid advice from the poker community we have here.

I decided that rather than babble on in a wordy blog I would get straight to the point. If you spot anything along the way let me know.

This is all my hands played to date.



BB’s



$$’s

For the first 85K hands I was playing 2nl and 5nl, I then took a shot at 10nl and ran good, I broke even after the run good for 15k hands and then I think foolishly stepped up to 25nl. I had 40 BI’s so I was rolled well but maybe I should have played more at 10nl?

I‘ve moved back to 10nl after having a losing June. I feel I’m maybe being too nitty with 75 BI’s for 10nl and perhaps should be more aggressive with my roll, however losing has always had a negative effect on my play and if I took another shot and started to lose I think it could dent my confidence again.

Here are my stats and graphs for the year. A mixture of 5nl+.



2013






Stats 2013



I've always considered my Cbet to be high but I've never really attempted to curb it and bring it in line.

Here are a few cbetting spots let me know what you think for each (villains unknown, or very small sample)



I would classify this as a wet co-ordinate board. Since we have A high with little way of impriving I think I would be cbet here and give up on almost every turn. However I think this is a mistake since his range interacts quite well with the board, it's hard for us to fold out any better hands since a weak pair likely has a draw as well so would this be a spot to check and give up unless we improve OTT?



Similarly the flop is very coordinated here, However we hold blockers to straights and have a gutshot ourself. I think this is another spot I would cbet but again I can see that it may be better to check back. We have 2 overs and a draw so we have a number of good turn cards we can call a bet on..?



This is one spot I think I would check back. The flop is co-ordianted and there is a FD possibilty. Although we have 2 overs there aren't many good turn cards to hit and he can have a lot of hands that once they've hit the flop won't fold.



Monotone flops often trouble me, especially when I flop 2overs and none of the flush draw. Here I think I would cbet, it's difficult for him to continue with anything that doesn't contain a good diamond. Our outlook is bleak when we see a turn so is it better to stab and give up?

Also it would be great if anyone has some advice as to how to stop me cbetting unecassarily when playing?

Thanks


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Last edited by Croyd93; Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 04:55 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 01, 2013, 06:23 PM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Hi croyd, your cbets in these hands look fine to me though i wouldnt cbet hand 4 though because any diamond is calling and hand 2 i wouldnt cbet if it was just a standard open but because you iso raised the limper and he checked i would probably bet around half pot and shut down if he calls as for your stats i have no clue.

My cbet is like 60% but i sometimes check when i know the villain has a weak hand and will like try to get me off my hand, i would like to get my cbet closer to 70% though.

Maybe your cbet is high because you might be paying less attention when multitabling i dont know just a thought.

Last edited by mike2198; Mon Jul 01, 2013 at 06:25 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 01, 2013, 06:42 PM
(#3)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Hi Croyd, you might not want to show them but your positional stats might solve the problem?

Most mistakes are made pre flop and not CBetting TBH.
 
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Tue Jul 02, 2013, 08:00 AM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Oliver, I've got the *same* leak!!


My cbet stat's not in the 80%, but it was a little higher than was ideal I think? So I did a little bit of research on how to try to bring it down. But since I've got that bigger leak of staying too long in pots, that's been my priority?

So like, my c-betting's not so great, and I probably do it too often. So with that being said, those hands you posted look not-so-bad?

One thing I noticed with the last one with the monotone board, is that not all monotone boards are the same - like there's the value of the hands, and their connectedness as well?

EG1 -

EG2 -

Maybe a board with the J and K is somewhere in between the two, but more like the 2nd, in that the villain might call with any K or any pair that has a diamond, especially a J - like even tighter players, would they? And then looser ones might call with pocket pairs with a diamond in addition to that?


Some stuff I did to try and bring my c-bet rate down (they seemed to help a bit?):

- only entering a pot in the cut-off versus unknowns with fairly strong hands, that had a decent chance of hitting the flop fairly well (so A9o versus an unknown I'd fold at first?) -- Edit: oh wait, on second thought, not sure this alters the c-bet rate in any way ... maybe it's still a good idea tho?

- checking behind on the flop and c-betting the turn instead, especially with low boards where there's a chance a high value 'scare' card might hit on the turn

- trying to pay more attention to the villains' post-flop stats like 'fold to flop c-bet', and 'fold to turn c-bet', wtsd

- that's all I can think of for now


Cool thread Oliver - looking forward to an interesting discussion and some cool spots, as always!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue Jul 02, 2013 at 06:02 PM.. Reason: edited for clarity
 
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Tue Jul 02, 2013, 01:45 PM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Hi Oli. The 35,000 hand break-even run is pretty sick. I had one of those at 2NL and that was bad enough, but at 10NL/25NL it must be sickening to be stuck in neutral, as you must have had multiple days when you dropped 2 or 3 buy-ins.

A quick look at your stats brought me to the same conclusion as yours. Too much c-betting without a plan, meaning you play "one and done" too often. This leads to the redline taking a nosedive.

I'll be posting a blog all about evaluating flop textures when considering a c-bet later tonight (link to follow), but it can be summarised like this:
Flops containing three cards with ranks of Jack to Seven are bad flops to bluff.

Of the hands you posted, only the T87 is a definite no-no. For the T93 and T73 two-tones, I'd weigh up other factors, including villain's stats.

I'll get back to work on my blog now. I think you intuitively know already when/why you should be c-betting, but reading my advice might help restore your confidence.


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Tue Jul 02, 2013, 04:58 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Here's the blog I was working on: The ABC of 2NL, part 14: The ABC of Continuation Betting, part B: Evaluating Board Texture. (It's about a mile long, so make a coffee and put your feet up!)


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Tue Jul 02, 2013, 06:00 PM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Arty, your latest blog's fantastic!! It's way, way better than anything I was able to find on the internet - I'm at the part with your short-cut trick for ranging wet boards using JTs, 88, A5s ... very neat trick!! Should help cut my ranging down by about 1hr and 12min lol

Must have taken you all-day to prepare, but it turned out great
 
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Tue Jul 02, 2013, 06:17 PM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Thanks a lot Sam. I've never seen anyone mentioning shortcuts to ranging before, so I was quite pleased to come up with that little trick a while ago, and it's nice that PSO blogs allow me to pass on the tricks I've learned. I'm also trying to trademark the term 'Dead Money Grab' (DMG) for when that one goes viral, as mentioned in the previous blog.

My blogs take a LOT of work. Taking and editing screengrabs in particular is very laborious, but my blogs have had some great feedback, so I'll keep putting the work in.


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Wed Jul 03, 2013, 02:35 PM
(#9)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Wow, what a great blog Arty! Not only did you teach me not to cbet JTx boards but I also learnt why everyone loves Equilab. I've had it ages and never known it had the 'piechart' feature.



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Last edited by Croyd93; Wed Jul 03, 2013 at 02:58 PM..
 
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Wed Jul 03, 2013, 02:58 PM
(#10)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Maybe your cbet is high because you might be paying less attention when multitabling i dont know just a thought.
This is defiantely a factor. When playing 4+ tables it's so easy to cbet without thinking sincee it has to be profitable so little of the time to work. I was planning on cutting back on my number of tables anyway but this is defiantely another reason to do so. Probably means going back to zoom but if it helps then it's worthwhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
Hi Croyd, you might not want to show them but your positional stats might solve the problem?
It looks like I'm cbetting too much from every position. Maybe my positional stats will help reveal other leaks.



Positional stats 2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Oliver, I've got the *same* leak!!


My cbet stat's not in the 80%, but it was a little higher than was ideal I think? So I did a little bit of research on how to try to bring it down. But since I've got that bigger leak of staying too long in pots, that's been my priority?

So like, my c-betting's not so great, and I probably do it too often. So with that being said, those hands you posted look not-so-bad?

One thing I noticed with the last one with the monotone board, is that not all monotone boards are the same - like there's the value of the hands, and their connectedness as well?

EG1 -

EG2 -

Maybe a board with the J and K is somewhere in between the two, but more like the 2nd, in that the villain might call with any K or any pair that has a diamond, especially a J - like even tighter players, would they? And then looser ones might call with pocket pairs with a diamond in addition to that?
Hi Sam,

I defiantely agree that there is a difference between the 2 monotone boards and although I would cbet most air on EG1, I think EG2 would give me some concern (especially after reading Arty's blog). As for your 'bigger' leak of staying too long in pots... I think that this comes down to hand reading and trusting your ability to judge equity. I put a lot of time in at the beginning of the year improving my hand reading. I learnt to look at the hand as a whole, constructing a range starting with preflop and building it after every action. It certainly improved my ability to hand read and has definately contributed to my ability to lay down hands on the turn and river, when facing big bets that I may have otherwise called as I could beat top pair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Some stuff I did to try and bring my c-bet rate down (they seemed to help a bit?):

- only entering a pot in the cut-off versus unknowns with fairly strong hands, that had a decent chance of hitting the flop fairly well (so A9o versus an unknown I'd fold at first?) -- Edit: oh wait, on second thought, not sure this alters the c-bet rate in any way ... maybe it's still a good idea tho?

- checking behind on the flop and c-betting the turn instead, especially with low boards where there's a chance a high value 'scare' card might hit on the turn

- trying to pay more attention to the villains' post-flop stats like 'fold to flop c-bet', and 'fold to turn c-bet', wtsd
Unfortunately I think folding a hand like A9o is beyond my level of discipline, I'm a fish at heart so playing hands is my priority.

However I definately need to start using post flop stats more effectively. I have them on my HUD they just don't come into my decision making very often.


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Thu Jul 04, 2013, 06:05 AM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post

Hi Sam,

I defiantely agree that there is a difference between the 2 monotone boards and although I would cbet most air on EG1, I think EG2 would give me some concern (especially after reading Arty's blog). As for your 'bigger' leak of staying too long in pots... I think that this comes down to hand reading and trusting your ability to judge equity. I put a lot of time in at the beginning of the year improving my hand reading. I learnt to look at the hand as a whole, constructing a range starting with preflop and building it after every action. It certainly improved my ability to hand read and has definately contributed to my ability to lay down hands on the turn and river, when facing big bets that I may have otherwise called as I could beat top pair.
Yes, it's a ranging issue with me I think - slowly but surely I seem to be making progress ... and the folding's coming along a bit too. I just finished a hand review and spotted some repeat leaks, so hopefully I'll be able to plug them soon



Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post

However I definately need to start using post flop stats more effectively. I have them on my HUD they just don't come into my decision making very often.
Ya, same with me - pre-flop it's all I'm looking at mostly; post-flop, I forget it's there. Probably because I'm too busy looking at the board, trying to range based on the betting. But the stats might sometimes be able to help with that, so I guess I should try to get in the habit of looking at them too


PS Seems like most if not all of us have found the move from 5nl to 10nl to be quite a bigger leap than the one from 2nl to 5nl? And the one from 10nl to 25nl seems to be big too? So, guess it'll come in time with study and review and practice and all that
 
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Thu Jul 04, 2013, 06:07 AM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Thanks a lot Sam. I've never seen anyone mentioning shortcuts to ranging before, so I was quite pleased to come up with that little trick a while ago, and it's nice that PSO blogs allow me to pass on the tricks I've learned. I'm also trying to trademark the term 'Dead Money Grab' (DMG) for when that one goes viral, as mentioned in the previous blog.

My blogs take a LOT of work. Taking and editing screengrabs in particular is very laborious, but my blogs have had some great feedback, so I'll keep putting the work in.

You know what else I liked about your blog Arty, was that tip about being careful when there's 3 cards in the zone between 7 and J. Because sometimes I still miss noticing that there's 3-to-a-straight on the board. So that was a good tip!!

I might even extend it to like, trying to be careful when there's 2 cards between 7 and K or something like that ...
 
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Thu Jul 04, 2013, 02:23 PM
(#13)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
It looks like I'm cbetting too much from every position. Maybe my positional stats will help reveal other leaks.
Overall stats look very good actually. I really think that just tightening up your c-betting will show a big improvement in results. I noticed that your c-bet number is higher when you're out of position. You should generally be taking more c-betting opportunities when you are in position. You can get away with a lot more "steals" if the action is checked to you on the button. When you're in the blinds or UTG, I think you should be more inclined to check-fold on wet flops when you have no equity, and check-call sometimes when the board isn't so scary. Delayed c-bets on the turn with ace high can work very well if the villain checks back the flop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
You know what else I liked about your blog Arty, was that tip about being careful when there's 3 cards in the zone between 7 and J. Because sometimes I still miss noticing that there's 3-to-a-straight on the board. So that was a good tip!!
I might even extend it to like, trying to be careful when there's 2 cards between 7 and K or something like that ...
I wouldn't necessarily go as far as cutting back on betting K-7 flops, because king-high flops often have a lot of fold equity, since you have several kings in your PFR range, and it's a scare card for unders. Noticing whether a made straight is possible is crucial, however, so boards like KT9, J87, T96, 985, 865 are all pretty scary. Villain won't have flopped the straight very often, but with 3 cards of similar rank, you'll often run into two pairs or pair+draw combos, so your fold equity is much lower than on boards like Q84, which only has gutshots.


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Thu Jul 04, 2013, 06:42 PM
(#14)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Overall stats look very good actually. I really think that just tightening up your c-betting will show a big improvement in results. I noticed that your c-bet number is higher when you're out of position. You should generally be taking more c-betting opportunities when you are in position. You can get away with a lot more "steals" if the action is checked to you on the button. When you're in the blinds or UTG, I think you should be more inclined to check-fold on wet flops when you have no equity, and check-call sometimes when the board isn't so scary. Delayed c-bets on the turn with ace high can work very well if the villain checks back the flop.
Your advice is already helping me, it's making me actively think about the flop more which is good as I'm actually evalutating the board texture, rather than auto'ing and waiting for villains to react. I think I may have missed a cbet here though, villains were both unknown (zoom). Their short stacks made me think they might be suspect to call a cbet.



In this hand I decided to check. I'm not sure I like check/calling as he would likely just check back hands like A high. However if we bet those exact hands are folding and only overs+draws and pairs+ will call. Is this a check fold, even though we have a pair?



Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
PS Seems like most if not all of us have found the move from 5nl to 10nl to be quite a bigger leap than the one from 2nl to 5nl? And the one from 10nl to 25nl seems to be big too? So, guess it'll come in time with study and review and practice and all that
I read an interesting article today, it explained that 2nl/5nl you learn your preflop game, 10nl the flop, 25nl the turn....

Master each stepping stone and you're on the ladder to sucess. Guess I shouldn't have ignored my cbet stat for so long, it's always been high. They just fold so much though As for 25nl I've only played 7k hands, I ran really good to begin with but it was short lived.


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Last edited by Croyd93; Thu Jul 04, 2013 at 07:42 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 04, 2013, 08:49 PM
(#15)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
On the K87tt, I think checking and planning to fold is OK. It's a pretty wet flop and you're out of position to one of the players. If they both had high "Fold to c-bet" stats, then I might go for it, but I'd usually just give up here and hope to get a free card, as there are quite a few turn cards that improve your equity.

With 65 on KQ5, BvB, I'd be more inclined to bet. You have a small piece of equity to fall back on if you get called (you have outs to trips/2pr) but this board is scary for hands like 99-66/44-22 and random Ax hands, which are common holdings for a player to call in the BB with. If villain calls on the flop, you can usually give him credit for Kx, Qx, JT, and maybe AJ/AT, so you can shut down and give up on the turn/river if you don't suck out.


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Fri Jul 05, 2013, 07:19 AM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
I read an interesting article today, it explained that 2nl/5nl you learn your preflop game, 10nl the flop, 25nl the turn....

Master each stepping stone and you're on the ladder to sucess. Guess I shouldn't have ignored my cbet stat for so long, it's always been high. They just fold so much though As for 25nl I've only played 7k hands, I ran really good to begin with but it was short lived.

You know what, this past week I've taken time off from the tables to do a mid-year assessment. And as part of that I put together a bit of summary/description of the play at 2nl, 5nl, and 10nl, and the kinds of skills we maybe need to have (or learn) at each of those stakes?

Maybe I'll put those in my time vault thread - it might be interesting to trade notes and see how similar/different some of us have found things. Probably I should take a couple of minutes to organize it, so it's presented in a user-friendly format, but I'm feeling kind of lazy
 
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Sat Jul 06, 2013, 07:41 PM
(#17)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
My cbet has been noticably lower te last few days (admittedly small sample sizes) but today it went up, think this was just because their were a lot of better flops and villains to be cbetting again since it was a weekend. However I think I may have given up a little easily one of these hands.

I have no reads on this player, not sure why I x/f tbh, Surely we can bet here since we hold a spade and any broadway is a good barrelling opportunity? Maybe I'm trying to hard to cut down on cbetting I'm overthinking it!




This was another unknown. I think this check fold is okay though. The pot is multiway and they have a lot of hands in there reange that hit this flop best just to ditch it right?



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Sun Jul 07, 2013, 06:05 AM
(#18)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I thought those flops were pretty dry, i think the button hits them flops alot more though so i dont mind giving up but i think i would be more likely to bet the 1st one as for the second one i dont mind checking and im definitely folding a bet from villain, what do you think villain 1 has when he bets so small?
 
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Sun Jul 07, 2013, 07:15 AM
(#19)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
I think the first one is close. There's no harm in check-folding, as that flop connects a lot better with the button's range than your perceived range (let alone your actual actual hand) but I'd sometimes bet it, especially if villain folds to c-bets more than 50% of the time.
On the second one, I'm giving up. Your hand is pretty weak, it's multiway, and you just don't have much fold equity.


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Wed Jul 10, 2013, 05:41 PM
(#20)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Oliver

Your post got me thinking about my own c-betting habits, and so I went back to look through my old thread while i was slacking from grinding. And then went back to check my notes for this class: Staying Aggressive (Nov. 14, 2012)

And there was a hand in that's similar to your AJo hand above - this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post



Similarly the flop is very coordinated here, However we hold blockers to straights and have a gutshot ourself. I think this is another spot I would cbet but again I can see that it may be better to check back. We have 2 overs and a draw so we have a number of good turn cards we can call a bet on..?
Edit: The hand is from Staying Aggressive (Nov. 14, 2012, @29:00)

Hand - in the sb, sb vs bb
Flop -

C-bet - $0.64 into a pot of $1.24 (not sure the training tool was showing the right amount?)


The class was good for thinking ahead to what sorts of cards we were hoping to see on the turn too.

Will look through the rest of my notes later to see if there's any more that are similar to your hands

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Jul 10, 2013 at 07:12 PM..
 

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