Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Tournament Section (MTTs & STTs) /

How to play when the flop is TOO good

Old
Question
How to play when the flop is TOO good - Fri Jul 12, 2013, 02:45 PM
(#1)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
I got this hand about 20 minutes into a $1.50 Fifty50 STT. I was sort of stunned for a moment, then had no idea how to play my hand. All suggestions welcome.

 
Old
Default
Fri Jul 12, 2013, 04:14 PM
(#2)
iggyo's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 171
***Thread move to appropriate section***


Follow me on Twitter
 
Old
Default
Fri Jul 12, 2013, 07:04 PM
(#3)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Check: gives them an opportunity to catch something. good for a fit or fold opponent. If they have a middle pair bet for you.

Small bet, ~1.3 pot: Maybe seen as weakness at this level so is good against a loose aggro. May entice them to see another card so you get some value. Gives them a chance to make a mistake.

3/4 pot + bet: Runs off any one except a nice pair.


Since fit or fold is a good Fifty50 strategy, I'd check.

Last edited by TrumpinJoe; Fri Jul 12, 2013 at 10:44 PM..
 
Old
Default
Fri Jul 12, 2013, 08:27 PM
(#4)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,607
Have to agree with TrumpinJoe that a check here is the way to go followed by bet on the turn.

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Fri Jul 12, 2013, 08:58 PM
(#5)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
I'm checking here as well. We can hope they have a pair or even a strong K and think that they're ahead here. Heck some players may even try to rep that THEY have the 4th ace.

If they check the flop back then I'm betting small on the turn and hope that they've improved and/or perceive weakness on our part.

Would be curious to know what happened here,hope you got a late "birthday present".
 
Old
Default
Fri Jul 12, 2013, 09:40 PM
(#6)
EmotiveKiwi's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 140
I'd actually bet this flop. The oppopnent would likely expect a bet and if he has a PP may think he is good. If he does call the flop bet then i might slow down and try to induce him to bet his hands.
 
Old
Default
Fri Jul 12, 2013, 10:38 PM
(#7)
Prohorse3's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 610
If he has a PP its much wiser to let him think you dont have squat just KJ or something and let him bet out,
If there is no bet on the flop then you still have the oppurtunity to bet the turn dont scare your opponent off with a hand thats likely to win 99.9999999% of the time.

nice flop joy


don't beg for things do it yourself or else you won't get anything
 
Old
Default
Fri Jul 12, 2013, 10:41 PM
(#8)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
yes to me you have to check here to let them catch up however you will not be able to get stacks in easily if you check and in a fifty/50 when 5 are left chips are worth money so I would tend to bet quite big on the turn and river

on reflection its tricky as you are the preflop aggresser so a continuation bet on this board is expected so emotivekiwi plan is good also

I think the villains fold to c bet stat /read here would be useful

im beginning well just starting to sound like i know what im talking about ...due to PSO i be very interested what the hand evaluator has to say and sorry i didnt mean to sit on the fence and hedge my bets

if hes ac alling station for example im always betting here all 3 streets

against a post flop maniac LAg type you could check to induce and if he checks th eflop you need to build the pot fo rvalue onthe turn and river if he has nothign tocall with i doubt he wil call on any street anyways soyou just have to be happy with a smallish pot as youhave th eboard crushed obv

verusus a tight passive rock /nit a check would be best here as you dont want him to escape cheaply

so its like dave says it depends ....its very read dependent

ps thanks for posting as it made me think and think away from the tables as "in game" i doubt i would have followed my own advice but in the future i hope to

rolo
 
Old
Default
Fri Jul 12, 2013, 11:04 PM
(#9)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
This is a Fifty50 and two away from payoff. Joy's 4th stack and slightly behind 3rd. This is a situation to maximize value. A std 2.5 bb bet from the cutoff can easily check here without being suspicious, imo, unless she's against players who know that she almost always c-bets when heads-up. There should be a lot more than pairs in this villains range calling a raise from a stealing positions. Two Broadway cards, middle suited one-gappers and off-suit connectors are also likely. A bet gives them the opportunity to make the right play and fold most of their range. Checking offers more opportunities for them to make a mistake.

In other situations the best ways to maximize value may well be different.
 
Old
Default
Fri Jul 12, 2013, 11:46 PM
(#10)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
Nice hand Joy.

I've been thinking a ton of different things about this hand.

My initial gut is to c-bet small. I don't think people will give you credit for an Ace much. And will continue or even reraise with a pair themselves or a Kx hand.

Some of the other things I've been thinking about was Trumpin Joe's statement and my initial thoughts too on maximising value. Being a Fifty50 there's that increased equity to stick around and less focus on winning all the chips. Here we're obviously not worried about being busted. But still the first chips we win in this pot are more important that getting all the chips.

For example if we check two streets and finally get 300 more chips out of the opponent on the river when they have a weak hand, is more important overall than ensuring we get two bets in for value vs a weak hand. The proviso being our opponent is always giving us chips when they are strong so doesn't matter what we do.

Now I'm also thinking about the villains calling range. Normally we're thinking some pairs and some Ax and a few broadways. Well they've actually got no Ax in their calling range now, because they are no Aces left. So that means their calling range now just becomes pairs and a few broadways. I think this means they actually have a pretty strong hand on this flop.

Given those two points. In a Fifty50 I'm inclined to change my mind and check this flop and possible even check a turn.

There really is a lot of aspects to this hand. For the most profitable line we need a read on our opponents tendencies and calling range.

Andy




Quad Bracelet Winner

 
Old
Default
Fri Jul 12, 2013, 11:54 PM
(#11)
ahar010's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 614
Actually, one last comment.

One problem with checking to allow your opponent to hit is there are actually still scare cards to roll off.

If you think about some pocket pair hands. How happy would they be to see a K or Q roll off on the turn. It's actually possible that a turn card could kill our action.

So Vs a tight player that wouldn't bet a small fullhouse it may be better to cbet small on the flop. I doubt even a tight player would lay down a fullhouse to one bet.

And you never want to get yourself into a situation with two people slow playing each other




Quad Bracelet Winner

 
Old
Default
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:04 AM
(#12)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahar010 View Post
Actually, one last comment.

One problem with checking to allow your opponent to hit is there are actually still scare cards to roll off.

If you think about some pocket pair hands. How happy would they be to see a K or Q roll off on the turn. It's actually possible that a turn card could kill our action.

So Vs a tight player that wouldn't bet a small fullhouse it may be better to cbet small on the flop. I doubt even a tight player would lay down a fullhouse to one bet.

And you never want to get yourself into a situation with two people slow playing each other
Very good point on slow play Andy.

If they have a non-broadway pair, a broadway card will hit 1/3 of the time. If they hold 2 broadways, they only pair up 12%. With that range they hold a pair 45% of the time. Since a scare cards hit so often the villain's proper play against a check is to bet so you deny the hero a free card and represent a pair when you don't have it. So here we have the unusual situation where encouraging your opponent to do the right thing is the best line of play, imo.

So in this case is a check-raise; a check call then bet the turn; or a check - check the best line?

We must consider if this playing too many levels above this opponent with this line? In other words, can we count on this villain to do the right thing and bet? If we can't, then we should bet the flop to give them the chance to make a mistake.

This is what makes poker such a fascinating game.
 
Old
Default
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 12:36 PM
(#13)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
For me, it's bet-bet-shove, and it's not even close.
Villains never put you on quads if you come out betting, and on the few times I've flopped quads, I've stacked a full house every single time.
Slowplaying is so 1992.

EDIT: The fact that is a fifty50 might give me pause for thought, but I think even in that format, betting makes most sense.

Play your quads fast, like Benny Spindler.


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Sat Jul 13, 2013 at 12:42 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 01:54 PM
(#14)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
For me, it's bet-bet-shove, and it's not even close.
Villains never put you on quads if you come out betting, and on the few times I've flopped quads, I've stacked a full house every single time.
Slowplaying is so 1992.

EDIT: The fact that is a fifty50 might give me pause for thought, but I think even in that format, betting makes most sense.

Play your quads fast, like Benny Spindler.
Hello, there's a huge difference between this to hands Hero is OOP , Gomez has second possible nuts, Spindler has clear meaning that Gomez has a made hand, there's no need to slow play .
Hero is OOP, Villain doesn't have JJ+ (he would 3bet pre flop), there are JJ+ in hero's hand range, I think it's very difficult to get value from hero's hand here.I would check flop in a hope that villain will hit his K or Q OTT .
 
Old
Default
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 02:01 PM
(#15)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Slowplaying is so 1992.

EDIT: The fact that is a fifty50 might give me pause for thought, but I think even in that format, betting makes most sense.
That makes sense if our villain will check back to often. The only way to know for sure is to compare several plausible scenarios for EV. Not an exercise I am up to at the moment, too much thinking for a Saturday.

Good Decisions everyone!
 
Old
Default
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 02:35 PM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Joy - fun hand!!
 
Old
Default
Mon Jul 15, 2013, 08:24 PM
(#17)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
Terrific discussion, thanks to all who replied. I didn't really have a good read on the villain, although he seemed to be playing fairly tight. I did check the flop, I thought my only chance at value would be to let him catch up. I was fairly sure he would bet if he had a pair, but unfortunatly he checked back. I probably missed some value here, but I didn't think he would bet or call a bet with air.




PS. Villain folded KsJs

Last edited by joy7108; Mon Jul 15, 2013 at 08:44 PM.. Reason: add PS
 
Old
Default
Tue Jul 16, 2013, 03:02 PM
(#18)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahar010 View Post
Actually, one last comment.

One problem with checking to allow your opponent to hit is there are actually still scare cards to roll off.

If you think about some pocket pair hands. How happy would they be to see a K or Q roll off on the turn. It's actually possible that a turn card could kill our action.
^^This.

I think checking is likely to minimize value here unless there is history that dictates otherwise. As I was reading the thread this point by Andy is exactly what I was thinking. Reread his post about ranging the villain, which it seems no one who said check and let him catch up was really doing... with all Ax combos gone from villains range, he is very heavy in broadways (lots of K highs) and small-mid pocket pairs (assuming he'd 3b premium pairs preflop). A hand like 77 will call the flop bet, especially if it's not a huge bet but a modest one, where as there are literally no turn cards that improve this type of holding and quite a few which weaken it and make it harder to call.

History can play a key roll here though. Normally when we are weak but want to contest the pot we try to play our hand in a way that reps strength. This is the opposite scenario... basically when we flop the world we want to rep weakness to get action. Repping weakness isn't necessarily accomplished by checking though. So how would the villain expect us to play a weak hand or air? They probably expect us to c-bet between 1/3-1/2 pot stab to try and take it down. And as Andy pointed out, much of their range is strong enough to continue vs. this action. So do it.

To carry that thought on, what would we actually do with air if our 1/3rd pot cbet stab gets called? Villain probably expects us to shut it down and check the turn, which is why he calls to float us with KQ/KJ/KT/22-99 in the first place. So I think without history dictating a clear course of action, our best chance to maximize value here is bet flop, check turn, bet river.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Wed Jul 17, 2013, 01:43 PM
(#19)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Call me crazy, but I even lead into the pre-flop raiser if I flop quads. There's no way he ever puts me on the nuts. Poker is easy.



Bracelet Winner
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com