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Play money (20): Kc Kd, Opponent with possible trips vs. my 2 pair

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Play money (20): Kc Kd, Opponent with possible trips vs. my 2 pair - Wed Jul 17, 2013, 07:05 PM
(#1)
Negotiation4's Avatar
Since: Jul 2013
Posts: 7


Unfortunately I didn't have much info on Villain 6.

I had to think a lot before folding here.
I don't think Villain 6 has AA, considering the call pre-flop, meaning I'd have the best hand unless someone had a 5.

However, he pushed very hard.

What I want opinion(s) on is whether it was correct of me to call post-flop, and to fold?

EDIT: Didn't even consider the possibility of a full house with 77 until now. That may well be what he had.

Last edited by Negotiation4; Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 07:11 PM..
 
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Wed Jul 17, 2013, 07:31 PM
(#2)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
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Hello Negotiation4,

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When it comes to your hand I have to say I don't play much play money so don't know exactly how people play. However I think your raise pre-flop is huge and the fact two villains call it leads me to think maybe they're pretty loose and gambley? Then the BB donks the flop and might do this with a 5 or maybe an A7 type hand but it's a bit unusual. I might raise here and fold if I get 3-bet. But it is an odd one. I'm sure the analysis team will have a much better idea of what's going on though.



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Wed Jul 17, 2013, 08:15 PM
(#3)
butchsd's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 130
First a little disclaimer: Getting a meaningful analysis on a random play money cash game hand is extremely difficult. You just see so much random crazy play that it's pretty much impossible to know if an arbitrary villain is just clicking buttons at random or actually thinking about his/her moves. The result is that when you see a play money hand out of context like this it's most likely not going to result in a very meaningful discussion.

How many hands had you played with these players? Did you have any reads from previous hands how they played with a set, trips or other strong hand post flop?

You opened to 9x (9 times the big blind), was that standard for the table? If not, a smaller raise is usually the standard way to go so you don't give away information for free. In play money games a "standard real cash" open size like 3x or 4x will usually just get calls from most of the table, so slightly larger can be pretty standard here.

Assuming 9x is a pretty standard bet size, and both villains are somewhat thinking players, I'm assuming Villain 3 is calling your bet with something like 55+, ATo+, KTo+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, T9s. When Villain 3 calls, Villain 6 might be calling with 77+, AQo+, ATs+ KJs+. (This is most likely very much too tight for Villain 6, but again, I'm assuming they are thinking players.)

When villain 6 leads out for a quarter of his/her stack on a very dry board like this, it's very strong, so I'm assuming he/she hit a hand here. Might be an overpair, might be 77 or 55. Calling here to see what villain does on the turn is fine if you've seen this kind of behavior before with a bluff, otherwise it's most likely a fold or a shove, hoping you're up against 66 or 88+.

When the J drops on the turn, I don't think it changes anything for you, so if you called the flop because you think you had the best hand, that's most likely still true. When villain 6 essentially shoves all in, it's for about two thirds of the pot. It might very well be because villain got stubborn with a pair, but it's more unlikely here in my mind. The bet is pretty polarizing; either villain is a thinking player with the essential nuts, or it's a random play money joker with something like Q7o or A5o.

Also note that villain 3 calls behind you on the flop, what cards do you think he/she calls with preflop, calls a bet on the flop behind you, and folds to what's essentially a shove on the turn? I get the feeling that this is not a thinking player, it's just someone having a cup of coffee, stroking their cat with one hand and making snide remarks at the TV news anchors while clicking around the poker tables.

So.. Yeah, the only thing we really learned here is pretty much that the disclaimer holds true. It's almost impossible to get a meaningful discussion about a random play money hand without any kind of context. I'm tired. I'm gonna have a cup of coffee and make snide remarks at the TV news anchors. No cat, sadly.


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Last edited by butchsd; Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 08:19 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 18, 2013, 05:59 AM
(#4)
Negotiation4's Avatar
Since: Jul 2013
Posts: 7
Thanks butchsd!

My opening bet was a bit higher than I normally bet. I tend to Bet 6-7x the BB, which is usually called by ≈half, maybe a little less.

Unfortunately I was playing too many tables to have a firm grasp of what his playing style is like.

Looking back at the game I think you're right with the suggestion of folding post-flop. Based on the bet it looks like I'm behind, and my only real outs are two kings (Hadn't really thought of this before). However, I really called to see what he'd do later. When he (essentially) shoved on the turn I think it was definitely the right decision to fold, just a little late.

Thanks again!
 
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Thu Jul 18, 2013, 02:46 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Negotiation,

With a low stack to pot ratio (2.5) and the crazy irrational play that happens in play money, I personally can't find a fold here with KK. My commitment decision when I raise to 9x preflop and get 2 callers to set up this low SPR is that it will be profitable to commit post flop in this spot on basically any flop texture that doesn't contain an ace, and as far as flop textures without a K go, this one is pretty nice for us, so my plan isn't changing.

Yes, sometimes we'll get shown 77 or 5x, but we'll get shown plenty of worse hands too... 7x, 88-QQ, 86, 64, and some random nonsense factor where we see something totally silly like A3 or QJ just making a nonsense move. There's very few hands that beat us in his range and quite a lot that we beat, so without evidence of solid thought processes by the villain I think we are pretty +EV to stack off here.


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