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77 UTG 10NL Regular Speed table Multi-Way Flop

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77 UTG 10NL Regular Speed table Multi-Way Flop - Sat Jul 20, 2013, 05:42 AM
(#1)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
This hand was from a 10nl session I played last night. I talk to my brother a lot about poker and we had slightly different lines to take on this initially. The hand as it played out was how I played it but I am interested to here how it could have been played differently and if my line was the optimal one.

Dealt 77 UTG and raise it to what is my standard amount at 10nl reg speed tables and get a 3bet from UTG+1, as there was no other action at other tables at the time I was initially going to fold to the 3bet, but when action fell back on me it turns out there were 3 callers of the 3bet and it makes sense to call and see a flop given the odds offered.

The flop is as good as can be hoped for and this is where the line I took diverged from my brother. I elected to lead out after the big blind checked it. I thought this was a good line for a few reasons. Our hand is strong, but beatable, there is a potential flush draw out there, which could be both scary to me or to anyone else who has hit the flop without a flush draw. So with a nice pot already brewing I lead out for just over half the pot. This is technically a donk bet of course and often seen as weakness but I guess in a multi-way pot it could also be seen as a very strong hand.

UTG+1, the original 3bettor, just calls, as does the button, everyone else folds.

Turn card doesnt change too much, apart from bringing a backdoor flush draw into play. This doesnt play too much in my thinking at all.

At this stage, I reckon UTG+1 is one some kind of premium holding, he is 22/19/12.5 over 32 hands (Small sample disclaimer) so although active he isnt a complete lunatic. It would be reasonable to put him on something like AK/KK/QQ due to the 3bet pre and following action. I discount AA/JJ because he just calls the flop bet and I think he would elect to try and get some more money in.

The button is playing 9/7 and has called a 3bet pre and a half pot lead (Donk bet) from UTG+1. Discounting slow plays he also figures to have a premium that didnt want to bloat the pot pre, I discount AA as they would certainly elect to get the pot narrowed down to a two or three way pot the vast majority of the time and actually range him similarly to UTG+1 ie. big ace or premium that hasnt hit a set.

With less than a pot sized bet left, no intentions of folding, I elect to shove, hoping to get a call from the type of hands I think he is holding mentioned above.

The two main questions I have are:

1. Is leading out on the flop a good way to go about playing the hand? I figured at least one player had a big ace and could get attached.

2. Shoving the turn? Is there any alternative? Leading out for half the remaining stack doenst seem wise to me as if we just get called and see a flush card its not likely to feel great when getting the money in though we can still be ahead to top two type hands a lot of the time anyway

One final question, are the hand ranges I assigned above close, its a 3bet multiway pot so thats the reason I give for making it premium heavy.

Anyway, with all that spiel, here is the hand:



I'm likely to have omitted some thoughts or some information along the way so please ask anything further that is thought pertinent to how it played out.
 
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Sat Jul 20, 2013, 09:32 AM
(#2)
almigthybald's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 94
Hi, I have to admit I just skimmed through your text but I would go for X/R OTF since it is likely the 3-better or someone behind him has a good Ace or a strong draw and will bet on this flop. So against a 2 Dollar c bet I would X/R to 5 dollars and than get the other 5$ in OTT. This line would not leave you with such a awkward stack size at the turn and you can charge Flush or Combo draws more heavily.
 
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Sat Jul 20, 2013, 11:11 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi bhoy,

I think leading out is fine here. I know people like to go for a check-raise a lot when they flop a set, but I would only do that here if the UTG+1 guy is a huge c-bet monkey. In a 5 way pot it's less likely he's going to fire away with anything worse than AK I'd think, and likewise for anyone else with an ace. And there are some turn cards that are scary to people's aces, so it can definitely get checked through sometimes here which is a pretty big disaster for our set when it happens. Since we can't necessarily trust someone else to bet for us, betting ourself makes sense.

Given the size of the pot now and the likelihood that one or both of them has a big ace, I like shoving the turn for sure.


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Sun Jul 21, 2013, 06:46 AM
(#4)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
I think both check/raising and donking are fine.
I would prefer a check/shove since it's a wet board, but donking and shoving turn is profitable also.
But I think we make AQ AT and weak flush draws fold if we play it that way.
 
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Sun Jul 21, 2013, 07:55 AM
(#5)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by GamblingProp View Post
I think both check/raising and donking are fine.
I would prefer a check/shove since it's a wet board, but donking and shoving turn is profitable also.
But I think we make AQ AT and weak flush draws fold if we play it that way.
Well, I would be surprised if there were too many AQ/AT hands in there, everyone in the hand, apart from the BB, were pretty solid players solely going by their numbers (Which again the small sample size disclaimer applies to). The BB potentially was in there with random crap just because he thought he was getting decent odds to call and see a flop with a random hand. He had never raised over the 17 hands played with him but called a few times in that sample.

I think there were probably two premium hands in that hand. The AK who went to showdown and I think UTG+1 was probably making a disciplined laydown with a really good starting hand. I'd take a shot at saying that the MP guy was calling with a medium sized pocket pair 88-TT. Potentially AK too but we'll start running out of aces or kings.

As pointed out above, we cant know that someone will do the betting for us, some hands that are willing to call may not be willing to bet themselves in a 5 way pot.

If I was unlucky and everyone had missed that flop, which given the action seemed unlikely, then it was already a decent pot with a very strong but not unbeatable hand, so taking the pot down there wouldn't have been the end of the world.

The end result was great of course but I actually like how I played it too.
 
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Sun Jul 21, 2013, 08:01 AM
(#6)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi bhoy,

I think leading out is fine here. I know people like to go for a check-raise a lot when they flop a set, but I would only do that here if the UTG+1 guy is a huge c-bet monkey. In a 5 way pot it's less likely he's going to fire away with anything worse than AK I'd think, and likewise for anyone else with an ace. And there are some turn cards that are scary to people's aces, so it can definitely get checked through sometimes here which is a pretty big disaster for our set when it happens. Since we can't necessarily trust someone else to bet for us, betting ourself makes sense.

Given the size of the pot now and the likelihood that one or both of them has a big ace, I like shoving the turn for sure.
Thanks for the validation

The UTG+1 wasn't a huge c/bettor - he was running at around 50% which isn't small either of course but at least half the times he hasn't made a cbet so definitely couldn't be certain what he would do in this hand.
 

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