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NL 25 Zoom: Any better way to play JJ here than Call, Call, Fold?

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NL 25 Zoom: Any better way to play JJ here than Call, Call, Fold? - Sun Jul 21, 2013, 12:08 PM
(#1)
almigthybald's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 94
Hi,

villain is tight and rather passive over 770 hands VPIP: 12 PFR: 9 AG: 2 and Steal from CO: 16



guess its a fold even though he does not rep that much, just always hate theese Call Call Fold lines
 
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Sun Jul 21, 2013, 01:07 PM
(#2)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
3bet preflop, bet flop, bet turn, bet or check/fold river
 
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Sun Jul 21, 2013, 02:39 PM
(#3)
almigthybald's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 94
I would threebet JJ almost always in that spot, but against that super nit I thought even JJ might be to light to raise for value here. Although I dont mind threebetting JJ.
 
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Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:17 PM
(#4)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
I wonder if you could raise the flop?

Granted he will fold most of the cases, but there are Q,K,A you don't want to see, and if he has no hand he probably will not fire again anyways - meaning when he fires again he mostly has something (like pair of K:s here on turn).

Last edited by braveslice; Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 10:32 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 02:20 AM
(#5)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I noticed his opening size was on the smaller size i know players do this by position but in zoom i think people take advantage of players not having played with them as much and just open any size they wish with whatever hands they have?

So i might discount some of the big pairs unless he has alot of hands played with people at the table and he might of chose this time to bet smaller because he wanted to be 3bet?

I dont know if he is thinking along those lines but i think i would fold the turn putting him on a set or big pair.I would bet like that with 55 as well which got there on the river.I guess thats a player where you need some notes to see how he bets certain hands because you might save yourself a bet on the turn next time.
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 07:51 AM
(#6)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
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I'd still be tempted to 3b this IP vs his co range of 16%, depending on what hands he defends with, his postflop tendencies and how he perceives you. I don't think this player is likely to 4B light and playing the hand IP /w initiative makes it much easier to play, imo.

As played i think the river is a fold, though I wonder whether people are generally value betting thinly in this spot /w flopped sets (it's probably too thin, right?) It seems his range is mostly 5x or a double barreled spade draw that got there? I wouldn't be playing bluffcatcher here unless you'd seen him triple barrel before, though i do think it's an amazing spot to bluff. Based on what you say villain doesn't seem like the type to turn his 88 (or similar) into a bluff here.

Last edited by AceKingBlows; Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 07:56 AM..
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 11:50 AM
(#7)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Yes, I absolutely agree with that JJ plays much better for a call than a 3b against someone playing 12/9. If you get 4bet all you can do is puke. Even against his calling range you are most likely not in a terrific shape and your best hope would really be to be up against TT and 99 which is not going to give too much action anyways (unless it flops a set of course).

If you call pre there is absolutely no point in raising flop unless you have a solid read on the villain that he will go crazy with hands worse than yours. If he has a lower overpair, let him do the value betting for you, if he has a set or a bigger pair minimise your losses and if he is cbetting with AQ or AK he has about 25% equity so let him fire away.

The turn is a really really bad card. Most villains would happily use it to bluff with a 2nd barrel so I, myself tend to call here a lot but that is against someone who opens 25%+ or so from the CO! Against someone who is so nitty K is a genuine threat since he now barrels with a lot of hands that have you beat. Presumably he is not betting with TT,99 or 88 at this point, probably not even with QQ which leaves us with KJ(?),KQ,AK,KK,AA,sets and pure bluffs or spade FDs. You tell me which part of his range is bigger - value range or bluffing range? I am absolutely ok with folding here. If you call you can never call a big 3rd barrel so if he is the type of guy who would be 3 barreling QJ in this spot you are going to get bluffed off your hand anyway (which I of course belive is not true). I think calling the turn is a very costly way of making sure you are beat when facing another bet OTR

Last edited by TommyGun369; Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 11:55 AM..
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 11:59 AM
(#8)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceKingBlows View Post
I wonder whether people are generally value betting thinly in this spot /w flopped sets (it's probably too thin, right?)
Nope, I am absolutely value betting river with KQ+ as my default line and against some even wider. I know a few of guys against who you can 3 barrel A6+ for value anytime
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 01:49 PM
(#9)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Don't three-bet preflop against this player imo in this spot. This was a good call preflop and a good spot to go call/call/fold postflop.

I like your line as it recognizes his plausible bluffing frequency on the river is very different from his plausible bluffing frequency on the turn. The turn is a scare card, brings another draw, etc. The river completes a ton of those draws and is not as obvious a bluffing card to a 12/9 passive player.

I think when we call the turn we should recognize we are at the bottom of our turn calling range in this spot versus this player. This recognition will make it easier for us to fold the river when we face another bet.


Some things to clear up in this thread... if we three-bet and he four-bets, no puking, just a fold. I think three-betting and raising flop are both of lower EV than calling as it narrows a range that began tighter than we would like and the risk of putting in bigger bets bad is high compared to the chances of calling and keeping low equity hands (like AJ) in villain's total range.
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 01:52 PM
(#10)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGun369 View Post
Nope, I am absolutely value betting river with KQ+ as my default line and against some even wider. I know a few of guys against who you can 3 barrel A6+ for value anytime
If you bet KQ on this river, you are essentially bluffing. It's a merge that I would wager does not work at this level and only get called by better.

Last edited by AceKingBlows; Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 01:54 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 01:58 PM
(#11)
AceKingBlows's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
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I'd be interested to know what hands you see him V betting here Gareth? I'm perfectly happy to be wrong about v betting something like TPGK here, just curious, thanks!
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 02:05 PM
(#12)
Hrenchik1's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1
I think you were right playing this way.
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 02:46 PM
(#13)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
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Great reply by Gareth imo, just want to add my own comment about the preflop play.

I think 3-betting this villain is a critical mistake, he folds too much of his low equity hands. JJ plays well in position vs. a 16% open but not so much vs his continuing range vs. a 3b. Sure when he folds we pick up the pot pre (when the blinds also fold), but when he doesn't we'll have a much more marginal holding relative to his new hand strength, in a 3b pot where our potential to make large post flop errors increases. It's not really compensated for by the folds we get... remember he'll be folding a bunch of stuff we don't really want him to fold like 88 and ATs... keeping those hands in puts villain in a position to make more post flop mistakes with the dominated parts of his range, particularly out of position, and helps keep our mistakes more under control when we're behind.

Also, no reads were mentioned on the blinds, but that's relevant too. If one of the blinds is a fish, then 3-betting is a huge mistake here as it not only is the lower EV line vs the preflop raiser, but it shuts out the fish in the blinds and if there's one there, we don't want him out of the pot, we want him in the pot here.

Against this specific villain type in this spot, I would personally even flat as strong as QQ and AK some of the time (particularly if there's a fish in the blinds). I would be 3-betting very infrequently and very polarized to KK+, and suited ace blocker hands like A3s. I would have a pretty wide flatting range in position however as this player type is typically very exploitable post flop to floats and folding too frequently on scary boards, as long as the depth of money is big enough for him to "get away" and make his big folds (and 3-betting makes the money more shallow).


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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 02:57 PM
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 05:15 PM
(#15)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
Some things to clear up in this thread... if we three-bet and he four-bets, no puking, just a fold.
Am I really the only one who does not like 3bet folding JJ in position against a nit who would pay us handsomely if he really had KK/AA and we hit our set?

Last edited by TommyGun369; Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 05:19 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 06:04 PM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almigthybald View Post
Hi,
villain is tight and rather passive over 770 hands VPIP: 12 PFR: 9 AG: 2 and Steal from CO: 16

guess its a fold even though he does not rep that much, just always hate theese Call Call Fold lines

At the times I play 10nl, I'm finding there to be more interactions with regs than I ever had at 5nl, so that's taken some adjustment.


Hard to tell if the villain's the type who would just give up on the turn with (non-set) 22-QQ, JQ, AT, etc. (and therefore he hit one of his outs on the turn with the K, or flopped the set, or had KK+ to begin with?).

Or if the villain is the type to have known that you'd have 3-bet KK+ pre-flop, and wouldn't continue with just overs, such that he could double-barrel when the K hit.


Hey almigthy, do you happen to have any post-flop HUD stats handy, like flop and turn c-bets, wtsd and w$sd? Maybe if this villain's on the extreme end of things, that might show post-flop as well? On the other hand, I had a hand versus a reg the other day who pulled a move on me, and there weren't a lot of signs anywhere that he was like that ... that I've been able to find. Of course I got totally owned, so ... maybe there are some, but I still haven't spotted them

Anyways ... just thought it *might* be interesting to take a look at the HUD stats, if they happened to be handy?

Last edited by TrustySam; Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 07:11 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 06:39 PM
(#17)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGun369 View Post
Am I really the only one who does not like 3bet folding JJ in position against a nit who would pay us handsomely if he really had KK/AA and we hit our set?
that's the reason you don't three-bet. but if you did, you would fold to a four bet
 
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Mon Jul 22, 2013, 09:33 PM
(#18)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGun369 View Post
Am I really the only one who does not like 3bet folding JJ in position against a nit who would pay us handsomely if he really had KK/AA and we hit our set?
He can't pay us handsomely if we allow him to 4b us off of the hand preflop.


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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 05:09 AM
(#19)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Yeah, I read your original post wrong Gareth...Somehow I missed the very first sentence where you said a call is preferable to 3b. When I got to the not puke/folding part i got the impression that you recommend that line or say that it has the same EV as calling which I did not understand.

I obviously prefer calling to 3betting pre. If, for some reason I decided to 3bet and got 4bet I would definitely puke and then fold (and feel stupid)
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 01:17 PM
(#20)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceKingBlows View Post
I'd be interested to know what hands you see him V betting here Gareth? I'm perfectly happy to be wrong about v betting something like TPGK here, just curious, thanks!
Well determining the bottom of your river value bet range is always going to be highly dependent on the villain you face. Since we have not been given OP's stats from villain's perspective, we won't really know what that bottom should be. Let me say that there are very few players against whom I would value bet KQ in this situation against at 25nl. less than 10% of players in the pool. For 75% of the players a hand like KK with a blocker to the flush is a good example of the bottom of my value betting range. I mean, you have to get thin to win, but value bets like the KQ example are pretty highly contextual, if that makes sense.

cliffs: copped out of a real answer
 

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