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Whats your line AQ

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Whats your line AQ - Tue Jul 23, 2013, 12:06 PM
(#1)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
So you hold AQo and the board comes

Qs 9s 7c

Do you bet to get value from draws and for protection or do you check because villain will most likely raise you with all of his draws building a big pot with a weak hand on this board type.

If you was holding TJo and villain bet 70% of the pot whats your line if you raise and missed the turn do you check and give up or do you fire again your OOP by the way.


I guess if you had TJss or AKss you wouldn't mind getting all in on the flop if raised or barreling when you miss the turn especially if that 9 was a Ts?
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 12:26 PM
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With AQ, I'm basically 100% of the time leading. The only time I'd even consider not leading is if the opp 3-bet me preflop and would c-bet.. in which case, I'd check/raise him.

With JTo, any bet where I have to put over 16% into the pot... my cards are in the muck because calling is -EV.

TJss, I'm the favorite in the hand, so I'm calling the 70%.

With AKss, if opp bets 70%, it's mucked too, because calling is -EV.

John (JWK24)

Making -EV calls to chase a straight or flush is how a large number of people go broke playing poker.


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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 12:42 PM
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Cairn Destop's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
So you hold AQo and the board comes

Qs 9s 7c

Do you bet to get value from draws and for protection or do you check because villain will most likely raise you with all of his draws building a big pot with a weak hand on this board type. (1)

If you was holding TJo and villain bet 70% of the pot whats your line if you raise and missed the turn do you check and give up or do you fire again your OOP by the way. (2)


I guess if you had TJss or AKss you wouldn't mind getting all in on the flop if raised or barreling when you miss the turn especially if that 9 was a Ts? (3)



Okay, the old hedgehog will throw in his wooden nickel just to get things rolling.



1 ----- My betting is going to be dependent on the post flop situation. If there is just one or two other players, I'm betting for value. With more callers, I'll bet to protect. This means I'll encourage others to call in the first situation and discourage callers in the second. My one worry is the flush potential. The more players in the pot, the better chances are somebody has that 4-card flush. Make it too expensive to draw for a winner.

2 ----- As in most cases, the answer is "that depends." If a 70% pot raise puts me all-in, I might consider it a good call. Eight outs after the flop is about 1-in-3 probabilities of hitting. The open end makes it playable. Most likely, the other player has either a set or the two top cards paired. If a 70% pot raise isn't a sizable percentage of my stack, it's an instant call. Of course position will come into play here. I don't want to call such a huge raise if I'm early or middle, but will call late. Fewer players gives me a chance against even the one-paired player. Note that my two cards are higher than two other cards, so I also have the potential of over-pairing.

3 ----- Ace-king off, that's a fold hand post flop. Suited, I might want to see the turn if the bet didn't gut me. Otherwise, I'll consider myself lucky to avoid a potentially crippling play and bail. Nine outs offers me slightly better odds than a straight, and the straight-flush option noted would increase the odds. However, if I miss on the turn, I'm not chasing.
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 12:43 PM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
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With AQ, it's simple: value bet, value bet, value bet. If you even think of checking TPTK on that board, you're suffering from fancy play syndrome.
With JTo, I'm usually calling one street, if I'm in position. With a combo draw, I'm sometimes calling and sometimes raising and stacking off. As with most poker questions, it depends.


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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 01:11 PM
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Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
So you hold AQo and the board comes

Qs 9s 7c

Do you bet to get value from draws and for protection or do you check because villain will most likely raise you with all of his draws building a big pot with a weak hand on this board type.
I'm only going to answer this one for now, because I've got another question.

This is an obvious bet for value based on a normal pre flop activity

Now for my question on bet sizing with this situation.

Playing 2NL and with the pot at $0.12 with 2 players, how much do you bet?
50% ($0.06), then the other player only needs to call $0.06 to possibly win $0.24?
What about if the player has you covered 5 times and he's a loose player?
What about if the player only has 8BB left and might go all in?
What about if you're playing 100NL do you bet the same as 2NL?
If the player is a very loose or extremely tight or a newb or a regular, do you play them all the same?
What about a player with a huge bankroll vs a player with a small bankroll? (Felix vs Holdem......lol)

Ok that's more than one question, so I'll pack it all in one simple question. Does the bet sizing differ for any type of situation or player?

Hope this makes sense!!!
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 01:24 PM
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Sandtrap777's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
With AKss, if opp bets 70%, it's mucked too, because calling is -EV.

Making -EV calls to chase a straight or flush is how a large number of people go broke playing poker.
I totally agree with you John, BUT...........
If we 're playing 2NL and my stack is at $4.62 and all I have to do is call $0.09 in a $0.21 pot ($0.12 + $0.09) to see another card, I might do it depending on the player, his stack, how I'm doing overall.
Just look at some of the hands Garreth, Felix, Frosty play, they're not all +EV and by the book....LOL

I think the difference between losing a -EV hand or winning it will depend on more than just one factor. The big problem with the losing players is that they think it will work all the time

Just my 2c
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 02:43 PM
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mike2198's Avatar
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Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
With AQ, I'm basically 100% of the time leading. The only time I'd even consider not leading is if the opp 3-bet me preflop and would c-bet.. in which case, I'd check/raise him.

With JTo, any bet where I have to put over 16% into the pot... my cards are in the muck because calling is -EV.

TJss, I'm the favorite in the hand, so I'm calling the 70%.

With AKss, if opp bets 70%, it's mucked too, because calling is -EV.

John (JWK24)

Making -EV calls to chase a straight or flush is how a large number of people go broke playing poker.
You would check raise TPTK? What if he jams over the top then surely thats a fold.

I dont chase draws but cant we call upto a 2/3rds of the pot on the flop as we have implied odds as well?

As for when i said can we continue barreling i thought it was profitable when players flat your bets because you have fold equity as well and im my hand wont look face up when i do wake up when my hands hit?

At Arty no i wouldn't check that flop as my standard line, im just watching this player who beats higher stakes that was saying even at lower stakes you can check here because you don't want a player raising you off of your hand who might barrel the turn without hitting the turn.

At Sandtrap someone posted how much you have to bet to price players out in one of Artys posts.

Last edited by mike2198; Tue Jul 23, 2013 at 02:47 PM..
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 02:45 PM
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mike2198's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
I totally agree with you John, BUT...........
If we 're playing 2NL and my stack is at $4.62 and all I have to do is call $0.09 in a $0.21 pot ($0.12 + $0.09) to see another card, I might do it depending on the player, his stack, how I'm doing overall.
Just look at some of the hands Garreth, Felix, Frosty play, they're not all +EV and by the book....LOL

I think the difference between losing a -EV hand or winning it will depend on more than just one factor. The big problem with the losing players is that they think it will work all the time

Just my 2c
Yeah this is what im on about im not saying jam your draws every time im just wondering what everyones line was check or bet with the AQ hand and i do like to check raise that flop with a OESD and i will barrel the turn if i think i can get folds as well im not barreling if i think that villain will get it all in.

Last edited by mike2198; Tue Jul 23, 2013 at 02:50 PM..
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 02:48 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post

I dont chase draws but cant we call upto a 2/3rds of the pot on the flop as we have implied odds as well?
Unless I can be certain that the opp will stack off to me well over 50% of the time if I hit.. I do not have the odds to call 70%.

John (JWK24)


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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 03:00 PM
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mike2198's Avatar
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http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/blogs/post/?id=44769

Here you go trap
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 03:07 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Mike,

The reason for the high % of times I need to stack them is due to this. Yes, it's 9 cents.. but.. 82% of the time to the turn and 64% of the time to the river.. I'm going to miss my flush and there is probably going to be a bet by someone on the turn too. Also, there is a small % of the time where I hit my flush.. and lose. I have to make up for all of these occurrences in order to have a +EV play.

John(JWK24)


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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 03:20 PM
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mike2198's Avatar
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Yeah i know where your coming from i do flat draws sometimes but i might check raise a nit knowing his strong and if i hit i know im getting his stack but i wont barrel a nit with air or if im playing a ABC tag who is capable of folding when i fire a missed draw then thats exactly what i will do.

As for stations i will check my draw and still get payed when i hit because they dont care how much is going in the pot because they have 1 pair.

Last edited by mike2198; Tue Jul 23, 2013 at 03:47 PM..
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 04:17 PM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
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FWIW, I would never be contemplating calling a c-bet when I have JTo on this board, because I don't call a pre-flop raise with JTo. :/


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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 04:39 PM
(#14)
mike2198's Avatar
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Posts: 1,485
You would if it was multi way with two fish in the pot though and you were in position, its not a hand you would see alot i was just using it as an example.
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 04:57 PM
(#15)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
FWIW, I would never be contemplating calling a c-bet when I have JTo on this board, because I don't call a pre-flop raise with JTo. :/

LOL, really, never? in no circumstances?
But you will call a c-bet with A9o with nothing on the flop



Never say never...lol
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 05:32 PM
(#16)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
This hand has got a bit out of hand here because everyone is at sixes and sevens and talking about different things. Sand makes the most salient point: it is not just about the math, it is about game type, dynamics, level and player reads that decide whether a minus ev move may be profitable if other factors are in your favour.

TC
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 05:53 PM
(#17)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
There's no c-bet in that hand, Sandtrap. There's a very small donkbet, and if that's me with A9, I have an open-ended straight draw and a bargain price to call.


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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 06:05 PM
(#18)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
There's no c-bet in that hand, Sandtrap. There's a very small donkbet, and if that's me with A9, I have an open-ended straight draw and a bargain price to call.
Maybe I don't understand

A c-bet is a continuous bet, in that hand villain_5 makes a continuous bet of $0.04 (yes very small donk bet, but still continuous) and you did call (yes it was you 1st or 2nd page of your challenge)

Yes you did have an open-ended straight draw, but in Mike's example, the same situation appears with JTo, it's still an open-ended straight draw.

So in one instance, you do call and the other, you say never. Just goes to prove, that de play depends on the situation and not by the book

Just saying
 
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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 06:21 PM
(#19)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
It's not a continuation bet. Villain limped. I made an iso-raise and villain called. I was the pre-flop raiser, not a caller. Villain donked into me. If he hadn't donked, I would have made a continuation bet.


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Tue Jul 23, 2013, 07:01 PM
(#20)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
OK get it, sorry
 

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