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5NL A5o bluff fail blind vs blind

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5NL A5o bluff fail blind vs blind - Wed Jul 24, 2013, 08:20 PM
(#1)
okneechan's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 41


Did I do something wrong here? I repped a fullhouse but he still called my river shove. Was my line not credible enough?
Any advice on bluffing in general would be appreciated or should I just stop bluffing at my stakes? I've never had a fold yet. I do try to send a logical message on what Im holding. I guess his straight was hard to fold...
 
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Wed Jul 24, 2013, 10:19 PM
(#2)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi okneechan,

Just a couple of things from my own play. At the micros I lose so much money in the blinds defending marginal hands. Even without clicking play in your hand I can see you are in the sb, oop vs bb!

Ok now bluffing a non-thinking player is a no no. They will call and call and call. You are representing a full house? So your writing a story and maybe your opponent can't even read.

So I stop doing anything clever and try to play things abc.

Just my 2c and I need to learn how to beat these stakes again.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Wed Jul 24, 2013 at 11:56 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 25, 2013, 01:51 AM
(#3)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
It's not a rule, but a good bit of guidance for the micros, and its as simple as saying 'don't bluff'.

You may rarely come up against some thinking players who can piece together tha you might have a full house on that board but on the turn they are mostly just thinking about their own hand. And when they have a straight they don't lay it down.
 
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Thu Jul 25, 2013, 10:16 AM
(#4)
okneechan's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 41
thank you both. I learned this the hard way. Now I changed my strategy to overbetting my strong hands for value and Im surprised how easily they pay me off. I'm still down 2 buy ins but hopefully I'll recover and then some.
 
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Thu Jul 25, 2013, 10:25 AM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Hi okneechan!

You asked some good questions, but I think you already know the answers. Look again:
Quote:
Should I just stop bluffing at my stakes? I've never had a fold yet.
If villains aren't folding to your bluffs, then stop making them! There are two important points to consider.
1. Your story has to be credible. (In the hand you posted, your line isn't completely convincing. I would guess that you've taken similarly strange lines in other spots).
2. Villain has to be capable of folding a made hand. (Many villains at these stakes are "level one thinkers". They aren't ranging you. They think solely of their own hand, and will have trouble folding top pair, let alone a straight or bottom full house.)

In this hand, the problem starts on the flop. You make a c-bet, which is OK, but I'm giving up if villain calls, let alone raises. When villain minraises, he usually has Qx, sometimes a J, and occasionally an underpair or a draw. He's certainly not giving you credit for a hand. You 3-bet, but with a minraise. Not only does this price villain in to call if he has a draw, it has zero fold equity if villain has Qx/Jx. If you really want to rep strength, then make a pot-sized raise. I much prefer a fold, however.

You make top pair on the turn, so you're now beating Qx. You're crushed by AQ, Jx and KT, but you have some showdown value. It's kind of a way ahead/way behind spot. I would bet small or check-call, trying to get to showdown cheaply. Turning your hand into a bluff is 'fancy play syndrome', and it's completely unnecessary at 5NL. When villain calls your big bet on the turn, you are basically never good. Overbet shoving the river is spew. Check-call if you must, but check-fold is better. Even though your bet here might look like Qx that hit a 2-outer to make the nut full house, villain is almost never folding jacks full. (Zeebo theorem: "No one folds a boat"). As seen here, this villain couldn't even fold a straight. :/

It's good that you posted this hand as an example, because it illuminates several problems. I mentioned fancy play syndrome, bluffing and "having a plan" in my latest blog about common mistakes made at nanostakes. I recommend you read it, because it's essential for you to avoid spewing off your stack if you want to be a long-term winner.

Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Arty


Bracelet Winner
 
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Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:38 AM
(#6)
okneechan's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 41
yeah everything you said is spot on and i do follow your blog. at first the plan was to simply steal his blind but it went out of hand because i wanted the pot for myself. looking back at this hand just makes me wonder what the hell i was thinking. im following xflixx's challenge and see his solid play. ill try to emulate that more. there are a few instances of my bluff or checkraise bluff all in on the river succeeding but that is against people who are too aggro. i just noticed they reraised too much preflop repping an OP so its basically rags vs rags LOL. i know i have to stop it though coz its never good in the long run or i might run into a true monster. also at 2NL there are few preflop reraise bluffs but more at 5NL. i guess that play happens more the higher the stakes. i saw one guy 3 bet 7Ts MP and got lucky on the flop vs QQ.

yeah that zeebo guy is one of my inspirations. just a mcdonald's guy who earned 2 million from online poker...
 

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