Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

Ranges

Old
Default
Ranges - Thu Jul 25, 2013, 10:33 AM
(#1)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
What is an accurate opening range for say an opponent that opens 30% of hands?

Ive been looking at all sorts of books and there all different for all the opening ranges for each type of player, im not really that bothered about a 10% hand range but im ganna post the differences below from two books.

My idea of wanting to know the range is because i want to know what players are calling with, i know what tight players are calling with to a degree but i would prefer to have a better understanding of this, basically i would like to know whos calling with any broadway to a UTG open or w/e because i know i wont being calling with even KQ off but im sure theres players who are.

So because im not flatting with KQo here i want to know who else is so i can read hands better.

Anyway here the ranges i got for 10% of hands from 2 diff books.

Book1 13% range 44+ 76s 87s 89s 9Ts j9s+ QTs+ KTs+ ATs+ AJo+ KQo+ Recommended (UTG range) (Bit Loose)

Book 2 88+ ATs+ KJs+ QTs+ AJo+ KJo+

This was actually a 3bet range from a different book but its the closest i can find to compare in terms of percentages, is this why there so different? because ones a 3bet range and the others an opening range i just couldnt understand how a 10% opens KJo and 13% does not.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 11:02 AM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
This might be better? 30% of hands both are down as opening ranges book 1 has

22+ 65s -9Ts 86s - T8s 96s - T7s J7s+ Q2s+ K2s+ A2s+ T9o J9o JTo Q9o+ K9o+ A8o+

book2 Is the same except we dont open hands below K9s Q9s QTo and JT0

Why are all these ranges so different surely a 30% range opens all aces and then we have a difference of all the extra suites Kx and qx hands that one book says dont open, isnt there somewhere i can find calling ranges.

From off the top of my head i expect nits are flatting all pairs and some suited broadways.

Tag players are flatting all pairs and some suited broadways/ suited connectors.

Tight passives i guess are some what similar with broadways offsuit as well maybe any ace

loose players any Ax Kx Qx Jx connected cards pretty much everything

Lags i have no clue what so ever

I guess all players are flatting some AQ aswell to UTG open i think Tags are gonna fold AQ to a tight opener but i dont expect them to 3bet AK either.

I dont expect players in the 15% to 20% range to be flatting suited connectors and anything except for big cards and pairs in middle position either should i put them on these hands till proven otherwise?

Yeah would be easier if i knew what the calling range look like, see im flatting around 4 _ 5 % of hands which is pairs and suited big cards and some big off suit cards i know its gonna vary by position but some sort of an idea for each player type would be great.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 11:29 AM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Opening ranges are completely different to calling ranges, and they change even more based on stack sizes and position. 3-betting ranges are again, quite different. (And ranges change even more in tournaments).

A semi-loose passive or LAGfish probably doesn't realise that KQo is bad hand to call with pre-flop, but they still do it. Competent TAGs, however, won't be calling UTG opens with AJo, but will sometimes call with hands like 65s.
If you're struggling with ranges, try putting yourself in a villain's shoes. If he's raising in EP, ask yourself what you would be raising in his position. If he's calling on the button, ask yourself what hands you'd be calling with. If the villain is looser than you, then imagine which hands you'd pick if you widened your range.

Make some ranges in Equilab and save them as presets. Just remember that EP ranges are big-card heavy, and late position ranges have more speculative hands.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 11:49 AM
(#4)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Yh but if i make some ranges they wont be accurate, My idea was if i knew an accurate opening range i can take away top top % of hands they raise with and the other hands would be there calling range which i can then set that up on equilab myself no problem i could use these opening ranges that im getting out of these books and work out the calling range for these range if i had a players vpip and pfr but i dont believe these opening ranges look like the real thing for example what they say is a 21% opening range looks nothing like what im opening with same goes for when i was playing 15% of hands.

But then again i open all sorts of trash on the button so it wouldn't look the same.

Would you say what i said certain players callling range looks like from off the top of my head i want to set up some ranges from each position that way i can narrow ranges even better before i see a hand because at the minute i see a flop and go well if i bet certain hands will call this bet and then if i bet the turn well then what hands call 2 streets and then i think well whats hands call 3 streets on this board but if i knew a better understanding of hands preflop well then i might be able to say well i know its very unlikely this player made this hand, its easy to see a flop of 27j and say well i know this player who opened in middle position is tight the chances of him having a two pair is pretty much zero but i would like to know what people are calling with, especially good players because they like flatting low suited cards in late positon and crack your tight UTG open when the flop comes 67Q and your like i have an overpair i value bet while this guy on the button has 67s.

Now im sure some players like nit with 7% of hands played dont flat there but i cant say for sure because i dont know what 7% of hands look like.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 12:07 PM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
In your HUD pop-up, you might see a "cold-call %" stat. I think my own is something like 5%, but that doesn't mean I'm always calling with a strict 5% of hands, and it's certainly not the strongest 5% of hands.
My pre-flop calling range might be something like TT-22 and KQs-76s+ (all SCs) plus AQs/AJs (suited gappers), but I'm not always calling with those hands. That range is only 7% of all combos. Each suited hand is a tiny fraction (0.3%) of all possible combos. Sometimes (e.g. when multiway) I'll have hands like J9s and 97s in my range too. You won't see me cold calling with A5o or KTo very often, if at all.

So if someone cold calls about 7% of the time, his range will be something like TT-22, AQs-AJs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s. If someone is calling more often (i.e. the gap between VPIP and PFR is larger) then you may see more suited aces, one-gappers and maybe some offsuit aces and Broadways too. Players that never call with SCs, and have a very small gap between VPIP and PFR are much easier to read. When they call pre-flop, they are set-mining almost always.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 12:20 PM
(#6)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Thats what im looking for il get that down in my note book cheers, you arnt flatting all those speculative hands in the cutoff though?

I mean if UTG is loose i figure that those hands go down in value? but if his tight like 99+ AQ+ AJs+ KQs well then i would imagine our speculative hands play better in this situation.

Another spot im having trouble with is calling with pocket pairs in the blinds i normally 3 bet my tens and flat 77 88 99 but 66 and lower just never flop tha great so im wondering if its more profitable to just fold them or 3bet them because they just miss the flop to much and when they do hit all you get is a cbet out of the villain anyway unless he hits TPTK.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 12:31 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Just reading part 8 on calling when someone opened the pot it seems i missed stuff just goes to show when you see something for the 1st time it dont all sink in, i might have to look back at some vids actually
 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 12:41 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Another spot im having trouble with is calling with pocket pairs in the blinds i normally 3 bet my tens and flat 77 88 99 but 66 and lower just never flop tha great so im wondering if its more profitable to just fold them or 3bet them because they just miss the flop to much and when they do hit all you get is a cbet out of the villain anyway unless he hits TPTK.
If you 3-bet with them, then you're basically going to be obligated to c-bet the flop with them and that can get real expensive with small/mid pairs.

If you don't put in the c-bet, then any opp in position with a clue will bet the flop on you just about 100% of the time and you'll have to fold to it.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 12:59 PM
(#9)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I dont know what i was doing when i read this the 1st time seems i missed a load of stuff, i noticed your only set mining vs a tight player UTG but i was under the impression that its more profitable to flat with pairs and suited connectors vs a strong range because when you hit your more likely to get payed.

I spose you reason for not flatting suited connectors is because you dont think that these players will pay us off if we raised them with 2 pair or a flush when all they have is an over pair on a scary board but i spose that still would be ok if we found a tight passive opened UTG because they are gonna get it in if they have raised a hand.

It seems my calling range was off then for certain players opening i was pretty tight vs loose players unless they were a station its a good job i dont do much calling then, maybe ive been missing a load of +EV spots then.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 01:02 PM
(#10)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Yeah but i would cbet the flop if i missed anyway unless the board was scary and i would be 3betting if villain folds to 3bets alot, i dont know i just think its a leak calling with small pairs in the blinds when you dont hit often enough.
 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 01:27 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
What I try to aim for, for calling ranges.. I want to be in the top 30% of what the opp's range is.

If they're playing top 30%, then I want a top 10% hand.

John (JWK24)

With the small pairs, that's why we NEED 15X the bet in both our stack and the opp's stack to set mine. Without this much in the stacks, it's not going to be profitable.


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Thu Jul 25, 2013, 03:31 PM
(#12)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Yeah i do that rule to set mine but my point is because im out of position and im just calling im losing money when i miss so i figured maybe a 3bet would be better i dont know i just dont like calling and folding i like to be doing the betting and if i flat IP i can still take the pot away when i miss sometimes. There must be better ways than flatting small pairs in the blinds because better players are not gonna let you float them and take the pot away as easy as they do at 2nl.

Which is why i would find myself in some awkward spots at higher stakes because i wouldn't get away with half the moves i pull at 2nl.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com