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Is going all in on the turn bad play?

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Is going all in on the turn bad play? - Fri Jul 26, 2013, 12:54 PM
(#1)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hi all,

I loaded some hands that I played for review purposes and noticed a worrying trait of shoving the turn when I have the nuts but there is still the possibility that my opponent can improve on the river. Rather than put up hands where I shoved and got sucked out on I decided to put one out where I won.

The downside of play like this I feel is that I am rarely getting called by worse and usually only hands that have the potential to improve. The upside is that if my hand holds and someone calls I can win a large pot. Unfortunately hands hold more rarely than I would expect with flush draws and houses being the culprit in a lot of cases. Should I resist the urge to shove the turn and bet smaller and then take a bet/fold line on the river in these cases? I am a bit confused what to do because if my opponent/s miss on the river they are unlikely to pay me off and I have then lost value but if I get it in good and then lose to a river card I have lost my stack.

Thanks,

TC

 
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Fri Jul 26, 2013, 02:05 PM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I have no idea when its a good time to get all in before the river thats a vid i need to watch of Daves soon what i do know though is 9T o is a fold preflop
 
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Fri Jul 26, 2013, 05:04 PM
(#3)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi topthecat,

I agree with mike2198 on folding preflop - I might decide to call with T9s from BTN vs UTG everyonce in a while but I would need some stats or reads to make that call.

Given that we called the open and now we get 3bet to that sizing we are getting 4.1:1 so I'm probably calling MW with some implied odds.
I would generally check and let the PFR continue his betting, but if I know that the villain will check back such a coordinated flop then I don't mind the flop bet. With the strength of our hand we want to bet big to get as much money in so I'd definitely bet bigger OTF if I'm taking a donk flop line instead of a x/r line.

I see no point to shove OTT bcoz the 4 is practically a blank and it does not affect our hand strength at all. A 1/2 pot bet is sufficient to ensure an all-in sizing <PSB OTR.
 
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Fri Jul 26, 2013, 05:29 PM
(#4)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Hey Top,

I think the only mistake here is playing T9o
But since you played it, personally, I think you played it right, as I would of done the same thing

Why would we make a donk bet of half the pot on the turn and give the other player the possibility of calling and hitting a flush? At this stake 60 odd cents isn't much to call.

I'd rather get him to call an all in, get the money in when you're favorite. If he folds, well an $0.83 profit on $2.39 is a 35% gain.

Good Luck
 
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Sat Jul 27, 2013, 02:29 AM
(#5)
okneechan's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 41
i like the shove OTT. there's already 1.22 in the pot and the villains would find it hard to fold a set here. with or without that hand, at micros you'll always find a client who will call anyway. so good job on milking that hand.
 
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Sat Jul 27, 2013, 02:48 AM
(#6)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Call pre is bad against an unknown.

As others have said, x/r would be better, but if you are going to donk at make your bet bigger so it's not an overbet OTT.

If you donk $0.40 the pot will be $1.7 with $1.4 or so behind making it a better shove.
 
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Sat Jul 27, 2013, 09:40 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi top,

2 topics here really, the actually hand and the play in a general sense. First my thoughts on the general sense, this is the part that is really the crux of the matter for me:

Quote:
The downside of play like this I feel is that I am rarely getting called by worse and usually only hands that have the potential to improve.
When we have a really strong hand, we want to get value for it. Overbet shoving the turn may be the best way to do that sometimes, but not all the time. In particular, it makes it very hard for the weaker parts of a villains range to stack off. So when they do stack off it is usually only the higher equity holdings and we get no value from the parts of their range we're crushing anyway, which is where the bread and butter of our value comes from. For instance, in this hand we may force holdings as strong as AJ to fold to this turn action. That's a disaster for us, because those big jack holdings are drawing dead, and would also be likely to stack off blank rivers if we got the money in over the turn and river instead of all right here. In other words this action forces a lot of low (or zero) equity hands to play correctly, and gives them no room to make a huge mistake.

If the villain were a huge loose fish who would insta-stack off QJ even to an overbet shove, then shoving the turn is optimal by far, get his money in before a scary river card freezes him.

Regarding this specific hand, I pretty much agree with what others have posted... preflop is a fold at each opportunity. On the flop I would prefer to go for a check-raise since it seems likely V1 will c-bet after 3-betting pre. If he cbets 30-35, we can c/r to .80-.90, then have a very nice and natural remaining stack to shove the turn should we be called. And if you do lead, make it bigger, I like birdayy's amount of .40c here, but c/r is better still I think unless V1 has a really low c-bet %.

Very nice hand to post, and great discussion topic.


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Thu Aug 01, 2013, 04:14 PM
(#8)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Thanks guys,

I actually had played zoom for over an hour probably nearer an hour and a half and this was one of my better hands so I know it was a lose limp. Any advice for how to play zoom when nearly every hand contains a 2 without a face card?

Cheers

TC

Last edited by topthecat; Thu Aug 01, 2013 at 04:17 PM..
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 11:35 AM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Top!!


I wrote down a bunch of stuff, but my thoughts are so jumbled I have to think your hand over some more over lunch




Will try to come up with something helpful over lunch
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 03:19 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Top!!


Those are tough questions you ask, with no answers probably ... it sounds like the main scenarios you were pondering are like:
● sets vs flush draws
● straights vs sets or flush draws


Board Textures

On the flop, there's actually pairings of these where a set and straight draw would about only be flipping:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post

2. TP and Nut Flush Draw

Sample:

flop

What if you're up against a straight like QJ?

AhTh: 40%
QJ (no heart): 60%
I also had a hand where I flopped top set and the villain had an open-ended straight flush draw plus overs, and we were basically flipping.


But then on the other end of the spectrum ... maybe some wet boards are less wet than others?

Like, here the board was so wet - but it was great because you had a lot of blockers to better straights, and took an out away from one of the flush draws.

And maybe having a 9T straight on a 78J board is stronger than having one on a 8JQ, where it's more likely the villain might have KQ than 56? A little?

On the other hand, multi-way, our pot odds go down.


Just some random thoughts that aren't really intended to lead anywhere, I guess they were more meant as like ... ideas for discussion?



Stack-to-Pot Ratio

And maybe this matters too? If we'd have so little left on the river, that we should probably be calling no matter what, then if the villain would be willing to call a shove on the turn, maybe we might as well just shove then?

With a bigger stack ... by the turn I guess there's so few hands that are behind that'll have good odds to win versus a straight or a set, that maybe we should be betting as much as we think the villain'll call (depending on whether the villain's on a flush draw or a set) ... but be willing to (bet-)fold to a river shove in the event that it's that 1/6 of a time our better hand doesn't hold?

That was something I saw in another HA thread a while back on the question of whether it's better to shove the flop with a set, even if it meant one of the 2 players in the pot might fold. There was this idea of recognizing that flopped sets will lose like 1/3 the time (?) to flush draws and overs, and that straights might lose a similar amount of the time to sets or whatever?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
As you improve, you should become more comfortable flat calling here, because as you say, having the third player come a long has a lot of value, and this value added is going to be greater than the possibility of being drawn out on when the turn comes.

What that is going to require is doing things like potentially folding a set on the river when the runout isn't in our favour and being fine with it. Especially the run outs is when a one-card broadway straight is going to come, not necessarily the three-flush.

So I think raising to stack off here is fine, but an even higher EV line might be to call here looking to put the money in on good turn cards and call on other ones.

I don't know

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 03:22 PM..
 

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