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25nl zoom, KK sb vs UTG deep stacks, bet sizing and river action?

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25nl zoom, KK sb vs UTG deep stacks, bet sizing and river action? - Fri Jul 26, 2013, 08:40 PM
(#1)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
UTG: 27/17/1,7 AF 30 hands, no 3bet 4 bets so far

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Button ($25.45)
SB ($46.14)
Carlos_dz87 (BB) ($60.48)
UTG ($131.37)
MP ($27.73)
CO ($45.86)

Preflop: Carlos_dz87 is BB with K, K
UTG bets $0.75, 3 folds, SB calls $0.65, Carlos_dz87 raises to $3.50, UTG calls $2.75, 1 fold

Flop: ($7.75) 7, 2, J (2 players)
Carlos_dz87 bets $4, UTG calls $4

Turn: ($15.75) 6 (2 players)
Carlos_dz87 bets $9.50, UTG calls $9.50

River: ($34.75) 4 (2 players)
Carlos_dz87 bets $18, UTG raises to $50

Total pot: $70.75

Results below:
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So how is my bet sizing on every street?
On the river if he slowplay AA to keep the recreational player in or flop a set, this board is like the perfect runout to keep slowplaying.. so i was thinking whats is better check-call a decent bet size, or bet-fold, i went with bet fold, because if he had QQ or some wear AJ i would hate myself lol, and also because it makes an easier decision folding to a shove than check-calling whatever size he choose. so check-call or bet fold? Thx
 
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Sat Jul 27, 2013, 05:48 AM
(#2)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Carlos,

Hard one!

Preflop sizing is spot on, I'd personally would go for 3.25$
(This is what I though at a first glance, but given stack sizes we might want to go larger)

When he calls a 3bet squeeze IP, I will put him on something like {QQ-22, AK/AQ, AJs, ATs/KTs/QTs/JTs, KQs/KJs/QJs, T9s, 98s, 87s}

We flop a strong overpair to the board so we bet for value. Give the board texture is dry we don't need to bet so big. I like sizing it to: 4-4.5 - The SPR is 7 however which actually sucks for our holding and committing with our hand early could be a mistake I think. If our intention is to stack off with KK then I think we need to be betting bigger as we need 3 streets of betting to get our money in.

I think with more information on villain we can have a better idea on his floating tendencies, but with our sizing and this flop texture I expect to be floated here often with AK/AQ/PPs.
His continuation range OTF I think will be {QQ-77, 22, AK/AQ/AJs/KJs/QJs/98s/87s} Most of that range however will be folding to a second barrel, so maybe we could go for a x/c line OTT to pot control and to keep his range wide given the SPR.

As played we have invested 60% of our stack by the river so b/f kinda sucks IMO but then again this does look like JJ/77/22 so much of the time when he shoves on us. I think a river x/c might be better as we ensure the action to end.

Last edited by geoVARTA; Sat Jul 27, 2013 at 05:52 AM..
 
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Sat Jul 27, 2013, 10:18 AM
(#3)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
I think its a tricky decision between x/c and b/f. However, because the stacks are so deep I think you can expect villain to be calling with the suited broadway hands geo suggests, so quite a few top pair hands are in villain's range. Does he bet his top pair hands when checked to? I find it doubtful, in which case I agree with you re bet/fold river for the reasons you suggest, but why not with a slightly smaller bet size - you still control what you put in the pot seems more +ev, as you suggest would still be sick to check and face a pot size bet.
Because of the board I don't see too many bluffs from either side on the river, that helps bet/fold and the ability to make it smaller than half pot without getting exploited.
 
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Sat Jul 27, 2013, 01:44 PM
(#4)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Is that the standard calling 3bets with all pocket pairs at them stakes? Surely when your OOP and especially if UTG was a tag more weak tight but still you would think hes 3 bet calling range would be abit tighter especially if carlos dont 3bet much?

Just wondering because im just trying to work out what people call 3bets with and i got your range down for IP vs a wide 3 better and if the pot was multi way but for OOP i got 88+ ATs+

I can agree though if he was a LAG he would call with that range don't know about what a nit or station calls with though cant see them calling 3bets OOP with suited connectors maybe suited broadways though.

Last edited by mike2198; Sat Jul 27, 2013 at 01:49 PM..
 
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Sat Jul 27, 2013, 02:21 PM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Most of that range however will be folding to a second barrel, so maybe we could go for a x/c line OTT to pot control and to keep his range wide given the SPR.
This is a line I've started to use more lately with strong hands, out of position, and dry boards - which seems to have worked out quite nicely with 3-bet pots. Although I don't tend to play as deep-stacked as you Carlos, so ... maybe so deep it's better to keep betting when deep? I don't know


Also, I've just started to become more aware of spr in 3-bet pots, so I don't have a lot of thoughts about whether check-call or bet-fold would be preferable here by the river - but am interested in hearing everybody else's ideas!

And lately I've been trying to think about how our ranges might look to villains, although that too is something I've just started doing recently - when we bet 3 streets but bet small, I wonder if maybe it looks like we have a hand like QQ or KK? You think maybe that's the case here? I don't know ...

Bet sizing in terms of the % of the pot
f:52%
t:60%
r:52%

Ahhh ... not too many thoughts on this hand - just an observation I guess I've really been enjoying the hands you've been posting Carlos - some very tricky spots with no easy answers, which has been great for learning, so thanks!!


PS Gosh, today was supposed to be grinding day, but it's turned out to be more of a study day I guess - but those are important too

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Jul 27, 2013 at 02:37 PM..
 
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Sat Jul 27, 2013, 03:30 PM
(#6)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Is that the standard calling 3bets with all pocket pairs at them stakes? Surely when your OOP and especially if UTG was a tag more weak tight but still you would think hes 3 bet calling range would be abit tighter especially if carlos dont 3bet much?
Stakes doesnt have to do much here, the fact that we are really deep and im representing a very strong hand, makes it profitable to call at least with all pocket pairs to set mine, and even some suited connectors, i would avoid calling here with hands that can be dominated like AJs, KQs rather call with 87s and 9Ts.
 
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Sat Jul 27, 2013, 04:31 PM
(#7)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
This is a line I've started to use more lately with strong hands, out of position, and dry boards - which seems to have worked out quite nicely with 3-bet pots. Although I don't tend to play as deep-stacked as you Carlos, so ... maybe so deep it's better to keep betting when deep? I don't know
Well i might start hit and running zoom to not get this deep and avoid this difficult spots lol

The thing i dont like about checking turn specially OOP, its that im giving away pot control, and makes decision kind of more difficult than if i keep representing a strong hand, since checking shows weakness and makes it more likely i could be getting bluffed on the river or that he is value betting QQ. The cons its that i narrow his range alot.
 
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Sat Jul 27, 2013, 04:41 PM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
lol!! One of the perks of zoom


I pretty much have to keep logging out and buying back in, since I don't know how to play deep-stacked. Not that it happens that often for me, since I'm breakeven lol

Actually I wound up in a spot today after winning a big pot, and it was VERY scary to be so deep and not know all the special considerations, so I guess if my game ever starts showing improvement, deep-stacked play'll be something else I'll have to learn more about. Won't worry about that too much for now


Thanks for your insight re:checking versus betting - seems like you put a lot of thought into each of your moves, so your comments have been very interesting to read
 
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Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:54 AM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,513
(Head Trainer)
Hi Carlos,

I think the sizing is good enough on all streets. I might size a bit larger on the flop and turn, but won't quibble much with your sizing there.

As played I am totally comfortable folding to his river raise. Our line has shown great strength, KK or AA kind of strength, 3-betting pre from OOP and barreling all 3 streets on a dry board. It's enough strength that he would have to be fairly insane to raise the river with QQ, or otherwise have no clue what's going on and not be understanding relative hand strength. But if that were the case I think QQ hits us earlier in the hand because he thinks he's good and is scared of AK sucking out on him. So yeah, I would rate this to be AA or JJ like most of the time.

I like geo's line of x/calling the turn to keep his range wide. Doubt he's gotten this far with AK but that only has 3 outs anyway, and this might be a player who can get away from AJ to heavy barreling.

As played, I think bet/folding the river is better than check/calling, as I'd expect him to just check all worse 1 pair hands down now, but he may well pay a reasonably sized river bet. I would bet a bit smaller though to make it easier for AJ and QQ to pay us off. If he's got that hand strength, I think we are a bit more likely to get called on flop and turn for a bit bigger sizing, but fold out much of it betting river big so there size a bit smaller imo.


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