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10nl zoom, flop a set, turn brings a flush, turn and river play? vs a short stack

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10nl zoom, flop a set, turn brings a flush, turn and river play? vs a short stack - Fri Aug 02, 2013, 04:13 AM
(#1)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
No hands vs button, but likely a weak player given stack size.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Button ($7.34)
SB ($8.78)
BB ($21.68)
Hero (UTG) ($10.88)
MP ($10)
CO ($11.39)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6, 6
Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Button calls $0.30, 1 fold, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) 6, 8, 4 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.70, Button calls $0.70, 1 fold

Turn: ($2.35) A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.90, Hero calls $0.90

River: ($4.15) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.80

Total pot: $4.15

Results below:
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So on the turn i checked because i thought if i get reraised here would really suck to fold and not see a river, and because it will commit us with his stack size.
Is this the right play? even if im not getting value from all his 1 card flush draws?

And on the river i have to be right only like 28% of the times, but im my experience weak players dont really value bet thin on boards with 3 cards of the same suit. call or fold?
 
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Fri Aug 02, 2013, 05:21 AM
(#2)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
Check-calling turn is just making it harder to fold on the river.
Villain could have Ax, two pair, and going for thin value on the turn and river.
If you think villain is weak you have to call, but versus any reg you should fold.
 
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Fri Aug 02, 2013, 10:59 AM
(#3)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917
*Moved to more appropriate forum* Fadyen

Personally I call the river. The villain could easily take your turn check as giving up or pot controlling with a draw even and be betting a lot of Ax hands for value. I think you're ahead of enough of his range and have a ton of showdown value so can easily call here. Especially after calling the turn once the flush has got there. I don't think there are too many 7s in his range so if you don't take him for the flush and call the turn you have to call the river too.



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Fri Aug 02, 2013, 01:18 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi Carlos,

We're at the very top of our range here so I can't find a fold. He can be betting hands like AxQd or aces up and not really view it as thin (he probably things Ax is good since you check/called the turn instead of barreled).

This is also a great card to bluff on the turn when you check to him, so even 22-55 could be making a move here.


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Fri Aug 02, 2013, 03:08 PM
(#5)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Thanks Dave, what do you do on turn? bet or check-call
 
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Fri Aug 02, 2013, 04:29 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Given that villain is a probable weaker player, I like betting as we'll be getting peeled on the flop by ace highs, so we'll get called by any draw (flopped or turned) and ace, but we don't know if he'll bet any of that for us.


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Fri Aug 02, 2013, 04:38 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
When you say hes at he top of his range what does that actually mean,does that have something to do with his position and board texture i keep seeing it popping up in books but i never get an explanation on the meaning so i don't quite understand.

How can you be at the top of your range with a set when there a flush on the board?
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 12:24 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
When you say hes at he top of his range what does that actually mean,does that have something to do with his position and board texture i keep seeing it popping up in books but i never get an explanation on the meaning so i don't quite understand.

How can you be at the top of your range with a set when there a flush on the board?
Hi Mike,

What this means is we have a certain range of hands that's plausible based on the line that we've taken (if villain is ranging us effectively, they should be somewhere in this ballpark). Being at the top of our range is when our actual holding is one of the very best hands within that entire range we hold in the given situation.

So for example, in this hand hero opens UTG for a raise. Don't know how hero plays so we'll say his range in this spot is medium to large pairs, A8s+, A9o+, JTs+, QT+ in general. C-bets 684dd in a 3 way pot... probably narrows his range to exclude out all air (I would hope), so he's got 88+, the suited diamond combos, and big ace combos with the Ad, AK with Kd. Then the ace of diamonds comes on the turn and hero checks and calls a smallish bet by the button. This removes the big Ad combos since that ace hit the board. He might take this line with AxKd although sometimes that bets, I wouldn't discount it. AxQd as well. Big pairs might also c/c this small bet, for sure if they have a diamond. Made flushes would be making a terrible mistake check/calling the turn, so much value wasted, but some players are slowplay happy with the nuts and again, no read on hero, so let's give hero KdQd, KdJd, KdTd as well. It seems odd that a set of 8's would check the turn and offer a free card on such a wet board, so I would actually rule sets out largely at this point. So if I were in villains shoes I think a reasonable range for hero is something like this:

KdTd+, AxKd, AxQd, KK-99 with a single diamond.

So on the river, we have like 3 combos of the nuts that was slow playing the turn, maybe 2 or 3 combos of top pair, and 15 combos of 2nd pair. Our range is heavily weighted to not-so-strong 1 pair hands here imo, all of which can only beat a bluff. And villain should feel comfortable betting aces up or really any 2 pair for value vs. our range (bet/folding would be my play with 2 pair). Since our range is roughly 85% 1 pair hands, many of which are 2nd pair, our actual holding of a set is in the top 15% of all our holdings, even higher if we would not always slow play the nuts on the turn, which I would assume we would play it fast sometimes (I hope). So the set of 6's is probably in the top 5-10% of our range here, AND it's totally disguised imo since we check-called the turn (meaning he should feel safe value betting 2 pair since he'll likely discount sets from our range).


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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 12:46 PM
(#9)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Wow cheers Dave that helped alot it makes sense now.
 

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