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25NL Zoom 6max, suited connectors deepstacked

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25NL Zoom 6max, suited connectors deepstacked - Fri Aug 02, 2013, 06:37 PM
(#1)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Hey everyone. Time for me to ask for help



PREFLOP

87s is not a hand i will always open in MP but in this situation I believe it is profitable for the following reasons:
-everyone is sitting at the table with a deeper stack making suited connectors much more valuable
-even though most of the villains were unknown to me, neither of them had too loose or too aggressive preflop stats.
-even at 25NL i am confident enough in my postflop abilities to not make too many stupid and costly mistakes

Unfortunately i had only about 50 hands on the villains involved in the hand. Both were playing about 20/20 preflop.

FLOP

Generally I am always in favor of fastplaying with deeper stack, position and a strong draw but I understand that this can get me in some tricky situations so I want to make sure I am playing these correctly. Please help me answer the following questions:

1) Fastplay or slowplay?
2) What would be your plan for the hand on future streets if unimproved?
3) How would you respond to a 3b from either of the villains OTF if you decided to raise the donk bet?

Thanks a lot

Tommy
 
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Fri Aug 02, 2013, 06:50 PM
(#2)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Oh, this is an interesting hand Tommy - I'm looking forward to hearing peoples' thoughts on the hand!!

(Wish I had more to add!! )
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 01:37 AM
(#3)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
I dont think you have any other option than call, if you reraise you are getting called or shove by, better flush draws and sets, sometimes a wear played overpair. Best case escenario you get it in vs an overpair with 44% eq, while must flushdraws have you in really bad shape. If BB its a reg i dont think he plays a 9x hand like this, so i dont think we can fold many better hands with a reraise. Also we are IP and we are the preflop raiser from an early position, so if villain gives up on river and we missed everything we can try to bluff him from his better flush draws.
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 02:14 AM
(#4)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Call since we are multiway. We want to be paid off when we hit our draw and another person in the hand means more potential for a larger pot.

If we had a vulnerable hand like Ts we could raise to isolate and protect our hand.

Also, if the turn comes a brick, i'd be tempted to raise if he continues so I can set up a nice sized pot to barrel the river (whether it be one of our outs of a card to represent like an ace)
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 02:15 AM
(#5)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
In my opinion you should fastplay it, raise flop with the intention of calling a 3bet.
Now if we don't improve on the turn I think you should fire a bet, the same amount that you would with a set, if villain donk bets I am probably folding.
But this is high variance play, so calling flop and playing your hand in an ABC mode on later streets is ok too.
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 06:24 AM
(#6)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
I like fastplaying mainly because we were the PFR which means we can still credibly represent a big overpair and all sets and put a lot of pressure on other 1 pair hands or higher FDs without a pair - I do not see a Q high FD 3bet getting it in OTF for example and at 25NL playing more than 100bb deep even NFD is not an auto stack off OTF for most... We also still have enough equity to call a 3bet I believe. Readless I cannot see myself 4bet stacking off OTF
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 01:03 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Hi Tommy,

I will generally call in this spot, and I think raising is pretty bad actually. Here are my reasons:

-The pot is multi-way, so a call may invite the other player to take a card off light, which increases the value of our draw.

-We have position on the donk bettor... if he's just leading with a 1 pair hand to "see where he's at" (like 9x, 77, etc) then while he might fold those to a raise right now, he is going to have a hard time getting those to showdown and winning anyway... most turn and rivers will either be scare cards for those holdings or improve us (or both). So against those hands we don't really have a pressing need to apply pressure right now, we'll have reasonable chances to take the pot away later unimproved.

-When we raise and get reraised, it is really super bad news. Raise/get it in mentality that people sometimes have with combo draws is misplaced in a spot like this. While we do have a nice draw, the range of hands that will get stacks in with us this deep in a single raised pot is going to consist largely of sets and big flush draws... and there in lies the problem with raise raise raise stack... unless the villain is super bad, we just end up getting our entire stack in bad either facing a set or overflush draw:

Board: 9h 2h 5d
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.486% 31.49% 00.00% 4364 0.00 { 8h7h }
Hand 1: 68.514% 68.51% 00.00% 9496 0.00 { 99, 55, 22, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, KhQh, KhJh }

As an aside, I really do not like raising overpairs multi-way when the effective stacks are this deep, the question about what do we do if we raise and someone reraises comes to mind... it simply is not profitable to just raise/stack off QQ here when we are this deep in a single raised pot unles the villain is a massive spew monkey. So raising sets us up to face a lot of gross spots and for villains to really punish us and sort of forces us to raise/fold a lot (yuck with overpairs) or stack off bad a lot (yuck with overpairs). When I have history and reads I might raise overpairs against a villain here even this deep, but absent those I think a more pot controlling line is warranted.


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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 05:26 PM
(#8)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Ok, looks like I need to change my assumptions about stack off ranges quite a bit...

Let's break it down again

{ 99, 55, 22, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, KhQh, KhJh }

If this is what you believe a default stack off range of an unknown is then I have picked a few hands to show how much equity they have against that range:

- 25.5%
- 31.0%
- 31.0%
- 35.5%
- 31.5%

- 26.8%
- 24.8%

Clearly stacking off overpairs against that range is not a good idea but if you generally stack off high FDs then they have the same equity as 87 of hearts. I find it hard to believe that a random guy at 25NL is stacking off a FD OTF especially if it is not the NFD in this situation. What I expected to see is a call from those hands and unless they improved on later street they would have to fold. Probably a bad assumption though... I have just never seen a guy stacking off here at 25NL zoom with type of hand yet. That is the whole point of fastplaying. If I get 3bet there by a K high FD then I obviously have to just call and not raise myself. I find it so hard for either of them to 3bet me without a set or NFD that I wanted to give myself the best chance of winnng with 8 high so I went for fastplaying. The one problem i see with slowplaying is that I have no showdown value unless I improve to a flush or a straight. My straight outs are pretty disguised but the flush is so obvious that i do not see getting paid off unless they had a higher flush or were very loose and spewy

If raising here is that bad then I will need to think it through again and make sure I will play these situations better in the future
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 05:46 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGun369 View Post
...I wanted to give myself the best chance of winnng with 8 high so I went for fastplaying. The one problem i see with slowplaying is that I have no showdown value unless I improve to a flush or a straight
8 high has no showdown value but vs. the stronger parts of their range you don't want to stack it off, and vs. the weaker parts of their range you can win without improving before the showdown as you have the positional advantage. You don't need to make him fold 77 right now, he's going to fold that a lot later in the hand anyway playing out of position.

Here's an example where I did something like this, although I had the nut flush draw... villains range here is largely 1 pair hands imo or worse draws, so calling isn't bad in position... if he's on a flush draw and we overflush this guy we're getting his stack at that point. If he's got top pair I don't think he's folding it so we end up bloating the pot, and stacking off as a dog if he's got a set that he's hoping to induce a raise with.

On the turn the weak lead again rules out sets imo, but not 1 pairs or draws. By just calling again here I can credibly rep any face card that comes as it looks like I might just have 2 big overs to him calling these weak leads, so when one does come and he weak leads a 3rd time, although I have some showdown value with ace high (beating all busted draws) it's very hard for him to call a raise now with a weak 1 pair hand. When you have the positional advantage you don't have to improve to win the pot necessarily is the point.

Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: $30.16
Hero (UTG): $58.01
CO: $25.00
BTN: $10.00
SB: $28.38

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 3:club: A:club:

Hero raises to $1.00, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.25, 2 players) 9:club: 4:spade: 7:club:
BB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

Turn: ($3.25, 2 players) 5:spade:
BB bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

River: ($4.25, 2 players) Q:heart:
BB bets $0.50, Hero raises to $5.50, fold

Hero wins $4.74


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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 06:17 PM
(#10)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
I definitely see the logic in playing the hand you posted the way you did. You had position, were up against weak leads and in case you both hit your draws you would stack him.

In the hand I posted we only had position on the donk bettor. There is still a guy behind left to act and to be honest I do not want him to call with T9 or J high FD. If he does call he will be the one with position not us. Also the donk bet was large enough so if we are able to raise it the guy behind should have no problem getting away from most of his 1 pair hands that are beating us. The original donk bettor might call with a big FD which is not the NFD. That would be ideal for me and very easy to play on turn and river. If we just flat i can never be too sure if the possible flush completing is good enough to go all in vs the original donk bettor especially when the guy behind comes along.

But ok, no need to argue about this any more. I absolutely see the logic in what you said about slowplaying here and it is very difficult for me to disagree so I might just try playing it that way and see what develops. If it leads to more situations I am unsure about I know where to ask for help
 
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Sun Aug 04, 2013, 09:26 AM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
I don't know if the stack depth would change this, but might a bb be more inclined to check(-raise or call, depending on what happened behind) the flop with a flush draw and overs? But bet out with a set or overpair like TT-JJ?

Also, is the sizing of the lead out still more consistent with protection on that stack depth? Or not necessarily?
 
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Sun Aug 04, 2013, 04:46 PM
(#12)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I thought the whole point of raising draws was because of having fold equity and my range for villain would be made hands and maybe TT and JJ which i doubt folds a raise so my line would be call to invite other players and hope i hit. They might have some flush draws as well but i dont think many players donk for that bet size with a draw either but i guess you cant rule them out either.

I read somewhere if you have a lot of outs in a draw you shouldn't try and get better hands to fold because theres more profit in calling when you do hit so instead you should raise with stuff like gutshots, im not fully sure how to play draws the best way yet either so at the moment im raising weak draws if i think i can get folds on the flop or later on in the hand and im flatting strong draws and getting all in with 15 outs seems like a good play at higher stakes just so i can get it in with sets when the board has draws on vs thinking players but i think at lower stakes you dont really need to get it in vs strong hands on the flop with monster draws because they are gonna pay you off if they have a set anyway.
 

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