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25NL Zoom 6max, AA in 3b pot against big flop check raise

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25NL Zoom 6max, AA in 3b pot against big flop check raise - Fri Aug 02, 2013, 07:03 PM
(#1)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Trouble in AA paradise



PREFLOP

Utg villain is an unknown 1 tabler.
Given the stack sizes and that he is potentially a weaker/looser player I opted for a bigger than usual preflop 3bet.

FLOP

Again I opted to go for a bigger cbet even though the flop is very dry and got raised big time. What do you make of this raise coming from most likely a recreational player on this board?

The problem with playing against these players is that I do not know if i can discount hands like 64, 75 and 53 from their range. Overall I do not think 3betting or folding is very smart so I decided to call and proceed from there

TURN

Another king which means we are now losing to a whole bunch of his potential flop check raising range and he checks?

RIVER

What do we do facing a river shove? I really hate folding since OTT we just told him that we do not have AK but can we really call? What do we beat here? 64? stupidly played QQ or JJ?? a totally random bluff? There is something goofy in this hand from the very beginning which makes it so difficult for me to accurately range a 1 tabler.

Please help

Tommy
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 02:25 AM
(#2)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
I'd just shove turn vs a random 1 tabler. You'd be surprised what they turn up with. Obviously a K is part of his range but I think we are winning enough to go for a value shove OTT.
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 03:07 AM
(#3)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
I am just shoving flop to make our lives easier, because a Kx doesn't fold there often.
As played you have to fold river I guess.
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 06:18 AM
(#4)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
I do not know about the shove.. Yes, it makes our lives easier but if he is never folding a K to a shove OTF then I can get the money in OTT or OTR anyway so I am not really losing any value or am exposing myself to a suckout. The problem is that he presumably does not have a Kx all the time so to extract some value from all the other hands we cannot just shove on a K high dry board. A 1 tabler can be spazzing here quite often I think and if that is the case I want him to shove, not me. My plan was basically to call off on any cards to come. The K however is just about the only one I am not sure about.

I would like to shove the flop only if he is generally calling there with a hand like TT, A6 or something totally stupid like that.
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 08:12 AM
(#5)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
I can see your point, I don't know maybe I am influenced by tournaments on my view, but I think shoving is what you would do with a Kx there.
But in a dry board you can call to induce.
I just don't think any thinking villain will shove turn with anything worse than trips after he sees your cold call on the flop,

Last edited by GamblingProp; Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 08:16 AM..
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 09:14 AM
(#6)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
With the board being so dry, I got the sense that the villain was hoping to get a fold with his check-raise? The only thing is that your pre-flop 3-bet was so big, which screams value, so AK, KK, AA make up such a big part of your range.


There are a couple of hands that came to mind that are *slightly* similar. The first one's from HA, and the 2nd's a spot from Live Training:


1. 10nl - utg oop call of a min-3bet with a low pocket pair, flop is one that everybody usually c-bets

10NL 6-max zoom. Raise 44 utg, +1 min 3bet, call and I x/r 955r flop?



2. 50nl - TPTK dry board gets reraised by the villain who called behind pre-flop (reg who's capable of bluffing)

River Decisions (Dec. 27, 2012, @31:00)

Hero(mp):
Villain(co)
Pot: $3.75

Flop:
Hero C-bet: $2.50
Villain: reraises to $7!

Turn
River

Villain had 33


3. Sandtrap's hand from HA - he reraised AK with TPTK on a dry board

I think Sandtrap posted this hand a couple of months ago, sometime in May? But he posts almost as much as me, so trying to find one of his old posts is like looking for a needle in a haystack

Will see if I can find it later


If the villain didn't have Kx, then maybe he had some sort of pocket pair? I don't know ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Aug 03, 2013 at 09:34 AM..
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 11:22 AM
(#7)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by GamblingProp View Post
I just don't think any thinking villain will shove turn with anything worse than trips after he sees your cold call on the flop,
1) I do not believe a thinking villain would use this raise sizing in 3b pot on that board. If he is bluffing he can make it much less to still be effective and if he is not and has a strong hand on that board why would he try to scare me with a monster raise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GamblingProp View Post
I think shoving is what you would do with a Kx there.
Not true. When I think of it I actually do not have a shoving range on that board. I would almost always call here with KK,AK and AA. Again, the only reason to shove is to induce a bad call by a hand with very low equity which would not put any more money in if i just called. Maybe, if I knew the villain was the type who would raise here 33 a lot then shoving can be ok. Maybe you can induce him to even call the shove with 33 since he might be thinking that you would never shove any of your strong hands on that board so you must be just rebluffing him... That seems to me a bit extreme though
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 11:34 AM
(#8)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
The only thing is that your pre-flop 3-bet was so big, which screams value, so AK, KK, AA make up such a big part of your range.
I would not give him credit for recognizing that. And the preflop 3bet was not that big.. "only" 3.5x which with slightly deeper stacks is not very unusual to see.

Yes, just like in the 1st hand you posted I am more inclined to interpret the check raise as a bluff rather than some sort of value but his river shove is then very strange. Can he really expect me to fold AA or even QQ and JJ there? This is where I get totally lost in 1 tablers. Their thinking process is so random that it is very to put on a range when something goofy like this happens which makes me want to call way too often
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 11:37 AM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
I think Sandtrap posted this hand a couple of months ago, sometime in May? But he posts almost as much as me, so trying to find one of his old posts is like looking for a needle in a haystack

Will see if I can find it later
I couldn't find it
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 11:42 AM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGun369 View Post
I would not give him credit for recognizing that. And the preflop 3bet was not that big.. "only" 3.5x which with slightly deeper stacks is not very unusual to see.

Yes, just like in the 1st hand you posted I am more inclined to interpret the check raise as a bluff rather than some sort of value but his river shove is then very strange. Can he really expect me to fold AA or even QQ and JJ there? This is where I get totally lost in 1 tablers. Their thinking process is so random that it is very to put on a range when something goofy like this happens which makes me want to call way too often

Although, a check-raise with out a set is pretty aggro, so I don't know ... maybe it was one of those 'spite shoves'?

I don't know ...
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 04:09 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Tommy,

I think you played this fine personally. I agree with calling the flop to give both Kx and bluffs room to get more in on the turn (his raise has bloated the pot quite a bit now so a bluff has to really bet a large amount here). Shoving the flop is not optimal imo... it avoids any potential difficult decisions later is all, but it does give Kx a chance to fold (we do not know if villain will fold or stack these off, it's not reasonable to say he will stack Kx off 100% of the time to a 3b shove on the flop imo), and it lets and bluffs or moves off the hook... if he's bluffing there's no concern with a free card since most bluffs are drawing dead to runners anyway.

When he bombs the river I think he has AK/KQ a lot here. Checking the turn because he figures he's good now so he's trying to get you to shove the turn, then shoving the river for value. I think your line is preferable to me than shoving turn, where we may get called by TT type hands for sure but we can get that value on the river mostly anyway, and again he may not stack these off. 1 tabling recreational player doesn't necessarily mean total brain dead fish... our calling the flop check-raise looks very strong on this dry board, even to a recreational player.

Quote:
I really hate folding since OTT we just told him that we do not have AK
By checking it back? tbh I think we should check back AK almost always here... our flop call looks strong and if we actually held AK we'd now be ahead of everything except flopped sets that just filled up, so it's really hard to get value from worse hands imo by betting. And a free card isn't particularly dangerous... it gives TT type hands 2 outs to beat us, but it also will induce a call or bet on the river as well from those holdings, so the reward is worth the risk of a 2 outter here imo. And checking back makes our hand look a lot like AA/QQ/JJ so if he was making a move, he might decide to try and take it down on the river. If he's got a worse K it doesn't matter what we do with AK, we stack him either now or on the river regardless of how we play it.


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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 05:05 PM
(#12)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
What I meant was that us checking back the turn could have induced him to make one final bluff OTR. Maybe he has the mentality of: ok he called the flop so I am done now. If he had AK he is definitely not folding trips. Huh he checked back? He cannot have AK so I am shoving!!! I do not know... Playing readless against 1 tablers is always fun

So just fold the river and move on. Got it
 
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Sat Aug 03, 2013, 09:23 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Before I just left open the possibility that the villain could have had either Kx or some sort of lower pocket pair.

But hearing Dave's thoughts in addition to everybody else's, along with a couple of things Tommy brought up here, and I have a theory on what the villain might have been thinking if he's a recreational player:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyGun369 View Post
I would not give him credit for recognizing that. And the preflop 3bet was not that big.. "only" 3.5x which with slightly deeper stacks is not very unusual to see.

Yes, just like in the 1st hand you posted I am more inclined to interpret the check raise as a bluff rather than some sort of value but his river shove is then very strange. Can he really expect me to fold AA or even QQ and JJ there? This is where I get totally lost in 1 tablers. Their thinking process is so random that it is very to put on a range when something goofy like this happens which makes me want to call way too often

First thing was that point about the 3-bet sizing meaning different things to different people - like in Tommy's mind he was 3-betting that size because they were both deep-stacked, and deep-stacked that sizing is normal and not large I guess? But since I haven't learned how to play deep-stacked properly yet, to me a 3.5x 3-bet signifies a big value bet ... which was a mis-read on my part I guess?

The second thing I noticed was that the villain's post-flop reraise was the exact same proportion as yours.


I thought maybe he thought you were trying to 'bully him' with your position and big stack? Because compared to 2nl where people only mini-reraise and only do it with KK+, the pre-flop aggression at 25nl must be a lot more intense? And maybe this villain's noticed that a lot of the 3-bets are coming from the button, and from big stacks ... and Tommy you had both.

So on the flop he makes TP, and then if he had it in his mind that you were 3-betting him light to try and steal his 70c, he might have thought he was good? So then he went and reraised you back in almost the same proportion that you re-raised him pre-flop ... I thought maybe he was trying to say like, 'take that!'?


Except Tommy was 3-betting for value with AA, and was instead thinking like omg, what is happening?!?


Just my guess that Dave was right that he probably had AK or KQ, and it just didn't occur to him that you could have had AA I guess
 
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Sun Aug 04, 2013, 10:01 AM
(#14)
RobinQQQ's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 115
whoops.

Last edited by RobinQQQ; Sun Aug 04, 2013 at 10:04 AM.. Reason: Wrong post
 

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