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Quads Queen AND Nines Full Play

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Quads Queen AND Nines Full Play - Mon Aug 05, 2013, 11:57 PM
(#1)
JohnPryce's Avatar
Since: Jul 2013
Posts: 25
The first hand, on the river I just guess I shouldn't have shoved and bet a bit smaller, so what do you say?



This is the hand, in my opinion, I best played for value betting.

 
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Tue Aug 06, 2013, 02:26 AM
(#2)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Stop donk betting.
 
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Tue Aug 06, 2013, 02:46 AM
(#3)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
Stop flopping the world.
Seriously though, you might consider slowplaying in both occasions and try to get the money in on the turn or river.
 
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Tue Aug 06, 2013, 08:01 AM
(#4)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
In both cases had you donked a tiny bit more, you would have got the money in smoothly.
 
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Tue Aug 06, 2013, 10:53 AM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Hi JP,

I'm an advocate of fast-playing big hands, but I'm not keen on the way you played these ones. In both situations, you called raises when you were out of position and then led into the pre-flop raiser. This is called a "donkbet", partly because it's the favourite play of donkeys, and it can lead to you losing value. While there definitely are some good situations to lead into the raiser, you're often far better off taking the standard line of checking to him, as he'll make a continuation bet. The biggest problem with donking is that a villain can fold, which is the last thing you want if you have a monster hand. Ideally, you want him to put money in the pot on multiple streets. He's much more likely to do that if you check to him, signifying that you are weak.

With QQ, your UTG open was called, and then the button made a small 3-bet. He's likely to have QQ+/AK, and while I don't recommend calling 3-bets out of position very often, I think it's OK to do so here, as long as you realise you are basically set-mining, as villain will have KK/AA pretty often. (For him to 3-bet versus your UTG open, he needs a monster). As played, you call, and it's 3-handed on the flop. You make quads and I would check. The pre-flop raiser is likely to bet this flop almost always. You could call this bet and probably call the turn too, unless it's an ace or king, in which case check-raising would be the best way to win a whole stack. When you lead for 3 streets, it's pretty obvious you have at least trips, so a villain can get away from KK+.

With 99, I'd fold to the pre-flop 3-bet. You need to call 14c to see a flop, but villain's stack is too short for this call to be profitable. For set-mining, you need implied odds of 15:1, meaning you need the remaining stack to be 15 times the cost of calling. It's a big leak to go set-mining without the right odds, because you'll miss the flop often and won't get paid enough when you hit to make up for all the misses.
As played, you call the 3-bet, so you're playing a bloated pot out of position with a weak hand. Fortunately, you flop a monster with top boat. I am definitely checking here. As with the previous hand, villain will be making a c-bet nearly always. Let him put some money in the pot when he's drawing to 2 outs at best. I'd probably go with a check-raise on the turn.
The line you took is very peculiar. You donked into the raiser on the flop, called his raise, then redonked on the turn. Since villain raised the flop, he's very likely to keep up his aggression on later streets (presumably with an overpair). If you keep donking into him, you'll give him a good reason to fold. If you want to get his whole stack, you need him to think he's ahead. He won't think he's ahead if you keep betting into him, will he?

If you're routinely leading into pre-flop raisers whenever you connect with the flop, you could be missing a ton of value. If you are the pre-flop raiser, then by all means continue your aggression, but if you called pre-flop, and are out of position, then it's generally better (indeed it is "standard") to check to the raiser.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Arty


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue Aug 06, 2013, 11:46 AM
(#6)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Don't know why some would think that it's terrible to donk bet, just like why someone must play by the book or let numbers dictate your play.

With QQ, I probably would of 3Bet to eliminate 1 of the players, but the way you played it is also good. To assume that the player as QQ+/AK or KK/AA pretty often, is very wrong, especially at 2NL. He could be holding 34s or 88, but at 2NL, he could be holding anything. Flopping quads, I would check call and only re-raise if a K/A would show up on turn or river to make believe that I hit.

With 99, pre-flop play is how I would of played it. You'll notice as you play higher stakes, players will play their hands to see the flop or the turn and fold, but if you didn't hit, you need to fold. The mistakes is not knowing when to fold. Your donk bet is appropriate here since he had raise pre-flop, your hoping for a re-raise and that's what happen. 60% on the turn is what I usually play, so nothing wrong there. But on the river, I would of still made a 60% bet.

I would suggest you get the most info out of players, take notes

Well done



PS. I'm not a hand analyzer, but I do pretty good
 
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Tue Aug 06, 2013, 04:01 PM
(#7)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Arty's advice is perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Don't know why some would think that it's terrible to donk bet ...
No one has said it is terrible to donk bet. Here when you flop the world it is ill-advised as you don't want the villain who would c bet their Ace high to just fold to a donk bet.

Donk betting can be profitable but it is hard work, needs to be balanced and therefore not something that you have to worry about until at least NL25.
 
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Tue Aug 06, 2013, 10:59 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
When you lead for 3 streets, it's pretty obvious you have at least trips, so a villain can get away from KK+.
^^This. I don't mind the donk line here as it looks so unbelievable that you have a Q and donk the flop, so we'll get at least called by all big pairs and floated by AK a ton here. But by the river he's already called you twice (likely a big pair now) and if you lead the 3rd time it looks like trips at this point. Much better here to check the river, which makes our hand look like 99/TT/JJ and then shove over his value bet if he leaves anything behind.


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