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10nl Zoom 87s 3bet pot, hit flush on turn, bluff catch on river?

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10nl Zoom 87s 3bet pot, hit flush on turn, bluff catch on river? - Thu Aug 08, 2013, 02:54 AM
(#1)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Only 3 hands on villain.. he was hidden from search, didnt want to lose time looking in the lobby..


PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Hero (Button) ($23.39)
SB ($15.53)
BB ($9.11)
UTG ($8.82)
MP ($15.20)
CO ($22.48)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, 9
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, SB raises to $0.75, BB calls $0.65, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.25) Q, J, 2 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.40, SB calls $1.40, 1 fold

Turn: ($5.05) K (2 players)
SB bets $2.45, Hero calls $2.45

River: ($9.95) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $10.93 (All-In), Hero....

Wear line by villain..
I don't see AQs or ATs not betting flop, but maybe some light 3bets like Ax to avoid getting CR?, but then lead turn with the nuts? are they scared of being outdrawn by sets?

call or fold?
 
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Thu Aug 08, 2013, 05:15 AM
(#2)
almigthybald's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 94
Hi Carlos,

yeah pretty weird line of the villain imo, hard for me to put him on a reasonable range.

I would have just raised his turn donkbet to something like 6$ to get value from high cards of clubs mainly AcX and to get value from non club made hands like a KJo that might fold to further action, if a fourth club or a Ten OTR comes. We are not sure if thoose hands are in his turn range but it would make some sense at least for villain to hold thoose.

Your hand is very strong but vulnerable OTT and the board is not getting any better to get value so get the value on the turn.

Last edited by almigthybald; Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 05:17 AM..
 
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Thu Aug 08, 2013, 05:19 AM
(#3)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Raise turn GII.

As played call river.
 
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Thu Aug 08, 2013, 06:28 AM
(#4)
okneechan's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 41
i call. I think he has AKo with A club.
 
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Thu Aug 08, 2013, 07:23 AM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Gosh, Carlos you post the most interesting spots

I guess for the villain to be shoving oop with a better flush would mean he:
1. 3-bet pre-flop with a hand like AcQc, AcTc, or bluffed with Ac7c or worse since the Kc and Jc are both on the board, and Carlos is holding the 8c and 9c, and
2. Chose not to c-bet the flop

The board was wet, and the hand was multiway, but still ... AcQc would likely c-bet for value. And if somebody would 3-bet AcTc pre-flop, maybe they'd c-bet that post-flop as well with 2 draws and an over?

Some people might choose to play Ac2c-Ac7c this way I think ... but maybe there's people who might also play a hand like AT (non-club) this way? Oh, and there's okneechan's hand too, AcK

With other failed draws like AcJx, the villain could have semi-bluff the flop and didn't, although at that point the hand was multi-way. Also, some people 3-bet bluff pre-flop with hands like 3c4c-6c7c, but maybe those hand might have betted larger on the turn?


Gosh, what to do ...it feels like kind of a close call. But you'd only need to be right 33% of the time for a call to be EV. On the other hand, you've only invested $5 in the pot, and would have to put in $10 more to call. On the other hand, it's sb vs d ...

EDIT: I changed my mind about folding ... now I'm not so sure. How likely do you think it is that a villain would play AT like this?

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Aug 08, 2013 at 12:17 PM..
 
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Thu Aug 08, 2013, 05:12 PM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Carlos,

It's so difficult to put villain on a range here especially without stats or reads.
Typically this is a flop that the 3bettor would either cbet or x/fold.

Let's try to think of reasons someone would x/c such a wet flop:
a) They are slow playing 2pair or sets: QQ/JJ/QJ/22
b) They are bad and are slow playing: AA/KK
c) They have a weak draw and are worried to get raised off their hand since they can't shove over a raise: AK, AT, KT, T9, some weak random FDs
d) They have a piece of the board but are looking to pot control OOP: Qx/Jx

I would give less weight to a) and b) and think the bulk of his x/c range would be some sort of weak draw or weak TP/MP

OTT, hands that would lead are hands that are in the c) and d) category that have improved
1) TP&2pair { AK, KQ, KJ, KT } 55.3%
2) Straights { AT, T9 } 35.5%
3) Flushes { Ac7c-Ac3c, QcTc } 9.2%

Obviously we are only worried about hands that beat us which are the Flushes but as you can see from the combinatorics he will only have a flush <10% of the time

We could potentially raise OTT since he could hold a naked club with his 1) and 2) holdings and could possibly continue to a raise

OTR, his shoving range has not changed too much especially that when you flat call his turn donk bet you have kept his range intact. I'm gonna call here and take a note of his holding.

This could be a frustrated shove with AcT or AcK; who knows he might even have AcQc or some hand like 7c6c. It's hard to tell with such a weird line.

Amuse us with SD if you called

GL at the tables!
 
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Fri Aug 09, 2013, 09:27 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
This smells like KJ to me. Or AT. It's just really hard to see him check/calling the flop with a flush draw or combo draw after 3-betting pre. I like raising the turn to set up stacks nicely on the river vs. 2 pair+ and, as played, snap this river shove. AT would shove this river for value once we flat the turn imo, KJ or KQ might, he could have slow played flop with a set (not a good slow play but w/e). He could just have AcKx and be BWP (betting without purpose) on the river. At any rate, if he happens to hold the nut flush somehow, he will be getting full value from me.


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Fri Aug 09, 2013, 01:59 PM
(#8)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Thanks Dave and everybody.

I definitely agree that raising turn would have been better, for value and protection.

I did call.. so here is the full hand.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Hero (Button) ($23.39)
SB ($15.53)
BB ($9.11)
UTG ($8.82)
MP ($15.20)
CO ($22.48)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, 9
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, SB raises to $0.75, BB calls $0.65, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.25) Q, J, 2 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.40, SB calls $1.40, 1 fold

Turn: ($5.05) K (2 players)
SB bets $2.45, Hero calls $2.45

River: ($9.95) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $10.93 (All-In), Hero calls $10.93

Total pot: $31.81 | Rake: $1.43

Results below:
Click to show hidden text






Thought would be nice to post a winning hand for a change,
 
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Fri Aug 09, 2013, 02:21 PM
(#9)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Very nice
 
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Fri Aug 09, 2013, 06:06 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
haha


Hey, Geo ... when I was reading your answer, I was thinking that your 4-point list for reasons why a villain would check-call was some especially fine stuff - but I didn't notice your new 'signature' until today Congrats on the new position!!


And that was a great point Dave about how since Carlos didn't raise the turn, the villain probably thought it was less likely Carlos had a flush (especially if a villain was holding the Ac, which he did wind up having)


The was the big shocker, zomg ... nice call Carlos!!


EDIT - see my Time Vault thread for added notes

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Aug 11, 2013 at 09:49 AM.. Reason: moved my stuff to my Time Vault thread :) ; Edit #2 - typed 'raise' instead of 'fold'
 
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Fri Aug 09, 2013, 06:56 PM
(#11)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Hi Trustysam,

I wouldn't say bluff catching its very important at 10nl ZOOM, or that people are bluffing river a lot at this stakes, and i wouldnt worry about it. However as xflixx have said at his #grindingup videos, dont fold your top ranges to lines that make no sense.

For example
On this hand Im probably calling, with straight and sets, cause its hard to give him credit for a flush.



What im having trouble at 10nl zoom, that didnt saw that much at 25nl, its those small donk bets and min 3bets, sometimes its the nuts sometimes its air.
 
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Fri Aug 09, 2013, 08:25 PM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Carlos


Yeah, I think I pretty much agree with your assessment.

Although, I haven't been bluff-catching *too* much when I haven't invested too much into the pot, the cost to call is a lot, and I don't have a hand with a decent amount of absolute strength. But when I've called, people have pretty much had the goods. Even when I didn't think their line made too much sense.


Most of my bluff-catching has been more of those spots that you mention - with the mini-raisers, or the mini-donkers lol¹ Probably that's more what I was referring too. Like, I guess I was interested in seeing if there were 'tells' that the villain could have been doing this with a hand as weak as A2o ... just for the sake of trying to get more accurate with ranging (for both pots/calls big and small)?

And I guess I wanted to sort of look over the signs that the villain might have been bluffing to see how strongly inconsistent they were, or if he took a line that could have been used for better flush, as maybe like a guide for whether to call or fold in similar spots in the future (for both pots/calls big and small)?


Not sure what sorts of patterns, if any, I'll find yet tho ... guess we'll see


Footnote
1. It's so tough when the person's line doesn't make sense, but our hand's not so hot either. Here's a hand of mine where I got mini-reraised blind v. blind holding TP. But my kicker was *not great*:

Click to show hidden text


There was another hand I had that was co vs bb, where the villain double-barrel mini-donked, and so I reraised. But all I had was A high, and got called, and then the villain mini-donked the river too - will have to see if I can find the hand ...

Not sure if my calls are always the right thing? And, these little pots can add up to a lot when it happens so much ...

Maybe sometimes some of these calls are close - but also, it feels like my hand ranging might not be as thorough as it could be, so maybe that's what I was hoping to get out of taking a closer look at your hand?

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 08:47 PM..
 
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Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:16 AM
(#13)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Interesting to see what he shoved with there Carlos! Bluffing with the nut blocker. I've been guilty of that against Dave once in an "All Hand Revealed" Session

@TrustySam, thanks for congrats!
"Here's a hand of mine where I got mini-reraised blind v. blind holding TP. But my kicker was *not great*"
You might want to include some x/c line there with a hand that cannot get 3 streets of value; would be good for pot control and add some deception to your game.
 
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Sun Aug 11, 2013, 08:34 AM
(#14)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
You might want to include some x/c line there with a hand that cannot get 3 streets of value; would be good for pot control and add some deception to your game.
Hey Geo

That idea really got me thinking ...

Now that you mention it, I guess my bet risked getting called by so many better Ax kickers, plus 7x, and was likely going to fold out most worse versus most players, only getting value from A2-A6, and maybe a couple of pocket pairs.

But by check-calling I keep the villain's range wide, give the bb the opportunity to bluff, and could still bet the turn if it got checked behind (which might stand a better chance of getting called, since the villain would be less likely to put me on the A, and their hand might have even improved on the turn but still be behind, etc)

That's definitely the better line - I like it a lot!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Aug 11, 2013 at 08:37 AM..
 
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Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:04 AM
(#15)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
 

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