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AKo vs J7d

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AKo vs J7d - Fri Aug 09, 2013, 02:17 PM
(#1)
Kazloa's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 5


Hi there - I've been trying to adjust my S&G play to be inline with lessons I've been taking at PokerSchoolOnline.

I admit that the larger bet sizing has been a little intimidating at first - but in this game I was feeling pretty good about my play up to this hand.

I'm wondering if I should have shoved pre-flop here... same result if he calls.

My knee jerk reaction was that I made a bad play - but the more I consider it I'm not sure... thanks for the feedback!
 
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Fri Aug 09, 2013, 03:33 PM
(#2)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Hello,
With 20 bb's and raise or limp in front of I shove 100% of the time. shoving is better than raising with just 20bb's because shove doesn't look so scary , I prefer to shove even with AA if I'm short stack because I get call more often than when raise. I'm happy if I get call from J7, time to time I loose but try not to mind. I was busted today with KK against 88 but it has nothing with bad play

Last edited by Shichi-77; Fri Aug 09, 2013 at 03:35 PM..
 
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Fri Aug 09, 2013, 09:29 PM
(#3)
Kazloa's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 5
Thanks for the response.
Yup - shoulda shoved. The lesson plan I'm trying to follow does tell me this - if my re-raise more than 1/3 of my stack - and I just moved forward with the raise without thinking it through.

He did snap shove after my raise - so in this case I think he's calling my shove anyways. But if I shoved first many times he'll probably fold.

To be honest, re-raising four times the initial raise is new for me, and I'm still getting over the feeling that it's too much. My mind was scared of the re-raise which is why I didn't consider the safer play - which was to shove.

Thanks again!
 
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Fri Aug 09, 2013, 11:58 PM
(#4)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi Kazloa,

The HA people haven't looked at this yet. But I agree with Shichi-77 shoving is better and we may be wrong.

I look at the villain's money behind and you cover this open raiser with about 14bb effective to play with post flop. So now I'm thinking a call or raise missing a A/K and playing out of position is not good.

So with that and you have great fold equity with your AK it is better to 3-bet shove.


PS. I have now looked at the showdown and my decision has not changed. We need to shrug it off and take a note of that player's raise and 4-bet shove range.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Sat Aug 10, 2013 at 12:08 AM.. Reason: Seen showdown
 
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Sat Aug 10, 2013, 03:45 AM
(#5)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazloa View Post
Thanks for the response.
Yup - shoulda shoved. The lesson plan I'm trying to follow does tell me this - if my re-raise more than 1/3 of my stack - and I just moved forward with the raise without thinking it through.

He did snap shove after my raise - so in this case I think he's calling my shove anyways. But if I shoved first many times he'll probably fold.

To be honest, re-raising four times the initial raise is new for me, and I'm still getting over the feeling that it's too much. My mind was scared of the re-raise which is why I didn't consider the safer play - which was to shove.

Thanks again!
You don't want him to fold you need his call
 
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Sat Aug 10, 2013, 10:24 AM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Hi Kazloa!

With AK in the BB, I get a min-raise from the opp. I'm going to 3-bet here and the key is the sizing of it. I want to raise to 3X the previous bet (600) chips. I do not want to raise too big or too small, as I want to keep all of my bets and raises standard in order to help conceal my hand. Players that bet larger with better hands and smaller with weaker ones are basically turning their cards face-up to their opponents... something I want to avoid.

The bet to 800 is one I would absolutely want to avoid doing for another reason.. it's a bet that does not make sense, as it's over 1/3 of my stack which means that I'd be pot-committed. When I'm pot-committed, I have 2 plays.. shove or fold. I cannot be doing something in the middle.

When the opp raises, I'm going to re-raise and shove preflop.

Making too large of bets in SNG's can lead to a big problem, as it will cause me to leak off chips in hands that I don't win. I always want to keep my bets standard in them. I know this is true for SNG's, as I've been playing blocks of 100 of them (my standard sng is the 45 player ones).

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Aug 10, 2013, 10:42 AM
(#7)
Courtland754's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 22
Unfortunately often you get faced with opponents like these.

You were in early position with AKo
He had J7s (which by my standards isn't playable anywhere except from the button and even then I'd be skeptical)

If I were in his place and min-raised, it would be merely to see the strength of other's hands, with intention of mucking at resistance.
Raising 4x was not necessarily the best move but it should have easily represented that you had a big hand (re-raise from early position and a shove with J7s? come on, that's just bad poker)
If I was in his position and got a 4x re-raise from early position and I had ~40% chance of winning pre-flop against AKo, my hand would've hit the muck very quickly especially in an SNG.
I don't get how this villain could've thought that he was ahead.

You definitely had the upper-hand and unfortunately there is "chance" in the game as well.

Last edited by Courtland754; Sat Aug 10, 2013 at 10:44 AM.. Reason: typo
 
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Sat Aug 10, 2013, 12:16 PM
(#8)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
To each their own

I just checked and this is a $1.50 50/50 SnG
There's already 2 players out and you're sitting in 2nd
The goal is to outlast 5 players

Personally, I would of called and if no A or K on the flop, I check or fold. You would still have 1,810 chips.

Remember AK is NOT the nuts, ONLY a possibility

If this was a regular SnG, then yes it's a shove, as you need to go for 1st place.
These 2 games have different approaches and if you would be playing a knock out SnG, it's another approach. Same goes for turbo, regular and hyper.

Players think that all games are played the same...WRONG

Just my 2 cents
 
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Sat Aug 10, 2013, 02:16 PM
(#9)
Kazloa's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi Kazloa!

With AK in the BB, I get a min-raise from the opp. I'm going to 3-bet here and the key is the sizing of it. I want to raise to 3X the previous bet (600) chips. I do not want to raise too big or too small, as I want to keep all of my bets and raises standard in order to help conceal my hand. Players that bet larger with better hands and smaller with weaker ones are basically turning their cards face-up to their opponents... something I want to avoid.

The bet to 800 is one I would absolutely want to avoid doing for another reason.. it's a bet that does not make sense, as it's over 1/3 of my stack which means that I'd be pot-committed. When I'm pot-committed, I have 2 plays.. shove or fold. I cannot be doing something in the middle.

When the opp raises, I'm going to re-raise and shove preflop.

Making too large of bets in SNG's can lead to a big problem, as it will cause me to leak off chips in hands that I don't win. I always want to keep my bets standard in them. I know this is true for SNG's, as I've been playing blocks of 100 of them (my standard sng is the 45 player ones).

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)
Hi there - and thanks for the feedback!

There seems to be a couple of different views floating around about bet sizing in this type of game. I have recently been trying to adjust my play to what is outlined in the SnG course: 4x raises pre-flop and re-raises 4x the original raise.

However, I notice a lot of players and player guides favour 3x pre-flop and either min-re-raises or 3x re-raises. I suppose this comes down to personal style to a degree... but your point is well taken about not adjusting bet sizes according to hand strength.

So one issue is how much do I bet and re-raise...

My other question is when is it okay to call? I'm having trouble playing aggressively from the BB... a call to a bunch of limpers feels weak and yet I often don't have the hand to make a raise or re-raise out of position. In this same hand if I had KQs or 88 would a call have been justified? Is a call from this spot EVER justifiable?

Thanks again - thinking and talking this through has been really helpful!
 
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Sat Aug 10, 2013, 02:21 PM
(#10)
Kazloa's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
To each their own

I just checked and this is a $1.50 50/50 SnG
There's already 2 players out and you're sitting in 2nd
The goal is to outlast 5 players

Personally, I would of called and if no A or K on the flop, I check or fold. You would still have 1,810 chips.

Remember AK is NOT the nuts, ONLY a possibility

If this was a regular SnG, then yes it's a shove, as you need to go for 1st place.
These 2 games have different approaches and if you would be playing a knock out SnG, it's another approach. Same goes for turbo, regular and hyper.

Players think that all games are played the same...WRONG

Just my 2 cents

Yeah - good points! This is why I was kicking myself when the flop hit. I went from second in chips to a do-or-die spot really fast. With a different flop I'm a hero... in this case I'm a zero.

I'm struggling a bit with trying to be more aggressive in these games - and so my weakness is knowing or sensing when to make a call instead of sticking to my standard raise/re-raise line.

Thanks for the feedback!
 
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Sat Aug 10, 2013, 07:43 PM
(#11)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Courtland754 View Post
Unfortunately often you get faced with opponents like these.

Nothing "unfortunate" about getting faced with opponents that put there stack on the line with J7. I'll take all of them I can get.

To kazola,Sandtrap777 is spot on with his analysis in my opinion. In a 50/50 SNG our overarching goal is to be one of the 5 players to cash. This carries much more importance in being profitable in these games than simply cashing does in a multi-table SNG like 27,45,90 and 180 mans. And those games simply cashing has more importance than it does in a big field scheduled MTT.

Here the call and re-evaluate our play after the flop approach will serve us best in a 50/50. We should really be only calling here with a very tight range as we're out of position and don't want to be getting too aggressive with a speculative hand. Not in a 50/50.

Plus,as always,game play in these is a huge consideration. If we call and miss the flop and have to fold here and then take the small blind that hits us next hand and have to fold that as well we still are in a spot wherein we've just had the blinds go through us and still have a very competitive stack (somewhere between 2nd and 4th most likely,depending on what happens...) and have 3 players who are decidedly shorter than us on the table. All of whom will have to take the blinds before they get back around to us.

In spots like these you'll have plenty of times,if you play a big number of these,where you won't even have to play another hand and can cash. That means you have to be very miserly with your chips. Chip protection in these 50/50 games means more than it does in other disciplines.

45 or 90 man SNG and I'm shoving here as a standard 3x raise would out me hard up against my commitment point,so I may as well max out my fold equity and make the villain make a bad call with hands that are weaker than my AK and really put the heat on their small and mid-pair hands that would have a slight edge on my AK,should they call. By shoving I'll get a lot of players to fold out their 22-66 hands,maybe a few 77-99 hands too.

When you're putting a hand in for analysis in the tournament and SNG section the type of game and buy-in (freeroll,a dime,5 dollars....whatever...)is very important information so we can give you the best advice possible.
 
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Sat Aug 10, 2013, 08:29 PM
(#12)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hey Kazloa

You have got lots of discussion going here. Which is good and what hand analysis is all about.

I'll take on the different point of view in 50/50 games. Surviving as 5th, 4th or even 3rd in chips sometimes is not good. You get $amount per chips/100 remaining when the bubble bursts but it may not even cover buy-in + entrance fee. We have the overlay of 1 stack being 10 handed to start.

So top 3 spots is the aim and taking out 4 players and having a huge chip lead on the bubble is the best pay day.

So still, even though I'm not a big fan of the best drawing hand AK, I'm still shoving to get a fold and have equity with a call. Unless with specific reads (this ep raiser is a nit only opens with AA/KK).


Last edited by ForrestFive; Sat Aug 10, 2013 at 08:34 PM..
 
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Sat Aug 10, 2013, 09:13 PM
(#13)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForrestFive View Post
I'll take on the different point of view in 50/50 games. Surviving as 5th, 4th or even 3rd in chips sometimes is not good. You get $amount per chips/100 remaining when the bubble bursts but it may not even cover buy-in + entrance fee. We have the overlay of 1 stack being 10 handed to start.

To get all your money back, all you need to do is finish with at least 250 chips, so it rarely happens that you don't get your money back. Sure the more chips you have the better it is, but you need to pick the right time to do it and against the right players.

For 375 chips difference between the 2 players, it's not the right time, nor the right player.

I was staked by the TIC to play those and had a great success, over 70% ITM

Just saying...lol
But like you said, to each their own way
GL
 
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Sat Aug 10, 2013, 10:38 PM
(#14)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Forrest the likelihood of cashing in one of these 50/50's and not making at least some profit is pretty small. I only had a chance to play around 150 of them before US players got shut out here but I know of the times I cashed (and I,like Santrap was in the money around 70% of the time,a little better I think...)I never,not once,cashed and took a loss.

You can find more than a few missives in this forum from myself as to the "evils" of the min-cash mindset in certain structures but when it comes to the 50/50's it's pretty cut and dried to me...cash first,all other considerations are secondary.

With three stacks on this table who have significantly less chips than us we don't want to be getting tangled up in an all-in spot with one of the stacks that can actually KO or cripple us. That's just not good target selection in this structure. Not with a hand like AK where we'll most likely have to improve to take the pot. Getting into "flip" spots isn't something one should be looking to do in these games when the stack we're going up against is relatively the same or bigger than ours. Not until we're short and desperate at any rate. And even then we can be more selective than we might usually be,given the parameters of these games. Satellite mentality goes a long way in these I think.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Sat Aug 10, 2013 at 10:47 PM..
 
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Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:08 AM
(#15)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Moxie,

I had one of them when we could play where I took a loss. Last hand of tourney, shorty shoved, another re-shoved and I had a few less chips than the re-shover and had AA.... I had the shorty covered, so if for some reason I lost to the re-shove, I would cash but have zero chips. Re-shover had TT and turned a T.

John (JWK24)

P.S. Kazloa, the different types of tourneys have different strategies, so please include where the hand is from. That way we can get you the best answer in return.


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Aug 11, 2013, 08:15 AM
(#16)
Courtland754's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Nothing "unfortunate" about getting faced with opponents that put there stack on the line with J7. I'll take all of them I can get.
That's true, I'd play those guys all day.
 
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Sun Aug 11, 2013, 03:51 PM
(#17)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Moxie,

I had one of them when we could play where I took a loss. Last hand of tourney, shorty shoved, another re-shoved and I had a few less chips than the re-shover and had AA.... I had the shorty covered, so if for some reason I lost to the re-shove, I would cash but have zero chips. Re-shover had TT and turned a T.

John (JWK24)

P.S. Kazloa, the different types of tourneys have different strategies, so please include where the hand is from. That way we can get you the best answer in return.

Not sure what your point is here dude. I know it CAN happen,just really unlikely enough to be much of a consideration is all I'm saying. Look,when we could play these (though you and I were playing them for $1 +.11 at the time...)and we compared notes on them,you had played around a hundred more of them than I had. And you can think of,in roughly 250 games,ONE example where you cashed and lost money. That's pretty much my point,that Forrest is off in his estimation that cashing in these and losing money is any kind of real consideration. It's almost never going to happen.
 
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Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:46 PM
(#18)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hey Moxie

Yes your right. It was a while back and forgot the pay structure. Just played a $7 one now $6.68 + 22c per 100 chips. With a min cash for $11.61 in regular 9 player turbos I may give these 50/50 a try again.

1 4500 $16.70
2 3910 $15.39
3 3330 $14.09
4 2390 $12.00 - me
5 870 $8.62

Last edited by ForrestFive; Sun Aug 11, 2013 at 04:48 PM..
 
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Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:55 PM
(#19)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForrestFive View Post
Hey Moxie

Yes your right. It was a while back and forgot the pay structure. Just played a $7 one now $6.68 + 22c per 100 chips. With a min cash for $11.61 in regular 9 player turbos I may give these 50/50 a try again.

1 4500 $16.70
2 3910 $15.39
3 3330 $14.09
4 2390 $12.00 - me
5 870 $8.62

Sweet Forrest. KILL IT.
 
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Mon Aug 12, 2013, 05:04 PM
(#20)
Kazloa's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 5
I wanted thank everyone again for their insight into this hand and this style of game in general!

Lots to think about - and it was really nice to be so well responded to on my first ever forum post... hope you all don't mind if I continue posting my noob questions ;-)
Cheers and good luck!
 

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